D&D 5E 5e completely nerfed charm - for YOU, anyway

[Seramus]

It doesn't obviate skill usage, it supplements the social skills. Don't have time to befriend the guard by conventional means? Charm him. Rolled a natural 1 trying to befriend the guard? Charm him. It's going to be more expedient in most cases than a skill check, and moreover can act as a safety net to the skill check. Also, if you suspect you need a high roll to succeed and/or might make the target violently hostile by your request, charming in advance will help with those issues.

Assisting supplements social skills, with no explicit realization that the victim has been charmed, no resources expended, and no V and S components that might be seen. You are almost always better off just making skill checks than casting Charm Person unless you are really banking on the 'cannot be attacked' part of the spell.

I never suggested that someone would do major favors for someone who has charmed them. My go-to example was of accepting a hot beverage from them, which just happens to be heavily dosed with tranquilizers. As I said then, when that person wakes up the fact that they know they were charmed will be probably the least of your worries.

And when you meet that guard again in a week, because many games are not a parade of one time characters that are never seen again, you're going to have a bad time.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Assisting supplements social skills, with no explicit realization that the victim has been charmed, no resources expended, and no V and S components that might be seen. You are almost always better off just making skill checks than casting Charm Person unless you are really banking on the 'cannot be attacked' part of the spell.
And when you meet that guard again in a week, because many games are not a parade of one time characters that are never seen again, you're going to have a bad time.

Allowing assistance is up to the DM. I certainly don't give auto advantage on social checks just because a second player says he'll stand there and nod at everything your character says.

If you have any sense, you skip town after drugging the guard (whether or not you charmed him) and don't come back for a long time. Doesn't mean he won't reoccur, but hanging around town like nothing happened is begging for trouble. Still, sometimes drugging the guard and skipping town is the most expedient way to get what you need/desire.

 

[Seramus]

Allowing assistance is up to the DM. I certainly don't give auto advantage on social checks just because a second player says he'll stand there and nod at everything your character says.

Charm Person doesn’t give you assistance on the save roll, so not getting assistance on the skill check is already better than charm person by itself. Getting assistance is just insult to injury.

If you have any sense, you skip town after drugging the guard (whether or not you charmed him) and don't come back for a long time. Doesn't mean he won't reoccur, but hanging around town like nothing happened is begging for trouble.

Skipping town after every charm person sounds like murder hobos. Which is great if you play that way, but not a glowing recommendation for anyone else.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Charm Person doesn’t give you assistance on the save roll, so not getting assistance on the skill check is already better than charm person by itself. Getting assistance is just insult to injury.
Skipping town after every charm person sounds like murder hobos. Which is great if you play that way, but not a glowing recommendation for anyone else.

Charm person gives you advantage on social checks. Which is the equivalent of assistance on a social check.

Sure, could be murder hobos. Or simply a heist adventure.

 

[Seramus]

Charm person gives you advantage on social checks. Which is the equivalent of assistance on a social check.

Not on that first save. So you are giving them a save, with a good chance of being noticed, guaranteeing they know they were charmed, and expending a resource... or you could just make a skill check. And if you can arrange for assistance with that skill check (which is common) then great! But it doesn’t matter, because you were already better off even without advantage.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Not on that first save. So you are giving them a save, with a good chance of being noticed, guaranteeing they know they were charmed, and expending a resource... or you could just make a skill check. And if you can arrange for assistance with that skill check (which is common) then great! But it doesn’t matter, because you were already better off even without advantage.

If you're a bard with an instrument of the bards or sorcerer with heighten spell, you can certainly have advantage.

Besides, you're comparing apples and oranges. In one case you have a saving throwing (which most NPCs are notoriously bad at) against a known quantity (your spell DC). In the other case it is your skill bonus against any DC of the DM's choosing. Not even remotely similar. It's entirely plausible that you have better odds with charm than a skill check.

But even that misses point. Because you will generally want to lead with a skill check (and that's a good thing). If you flub the skill check and foul that NPCs opinion of you, you can force a retry with charm (because if you charm him he's automatically friendly even if he wasn't before).

 

[SkidAce]

I didn't think the skill check could deliver instantaneous "you are my friend results".

 

[Seramus]

If you're a bard with an instrument of the bards or sorcerer with heighten spell, you can certainly have advantage.

This is true, if you are one of those classes with that specific item/feature. But do you believe that balances out the laundry list of other negatives of charm person?

Besides, you're comparing apples and oranges. In one case you have a saving throwing (which most NPCs are notoriously bad at) against a known quantity (your spell DC). In the other case it is your skill bonus against any DC of the DM's choosing. Not even remotely similar. It's entirely plausible that you have better odds with charm than a skill check.

It’s clear that you run a dramatically different game than the one I run, and that’s okay. But it does mean we have reached the ‘agree to disagree’ point.

 

[Fanaelialae]

This is true, if you are one of those classes with that specific item/feature. But do you believe that balances out the laundry list of other negatives of charm person?
It’s clear that you run a dramatically different game than the one I run, and that’s okay. But it does mean we have reached the ‘agree to disagree’ point.

In response to your question, I don't see charm person as having a laundry list of negatives, merely limitations. All spells have them. For example, Suggestion has a V component, making it unsubtle (Crawford confirmed that the V part is magic words, the phrase is separate). You must use a language that your target understands. The suggestion must be no more than 25 words and must sound reasonable to the target. It requires concentration (tell an ogre to take a stroll and your concentration is locked up for 8 hours if you don't want him coming back). It allows a saving throw to negate.

I could call that a laundry list of negatives, but I don't. I think Suggestion is a great spell. I just need to work within Suggestion's limitations when I use it is all. There are situations where Suggestion can shine and situations where it will be useless (such as simply lacking a common language).

The same applies to charm. Admittedly, if your DM allows social skills to be especially potent, charm may fall short. I'd argue that even in that case, however, it has a place as a safety net when you need to get the job done and don't want to simply murder hobo the guard.

That said, as you say, agree to disagree.

 

[Riley37]

I didn't think the skill check could deliver instantaneous "you are my friend results".

I don't know if it can in 5E. But in real life, a skilled con artist sometimes gets outcomes along those lines, within minutes. For example, if you can persuade a Marine, that you are a fellow Marine, you can then exploit a degree of camaraderie.

See also, computer hackers who talk people into revealing passwords. Kevin Mitnick, for example.

See also, Derren Brown. He doesn't always succeed... but sometimes he's managed to "buy" things paying with blank pieces of paper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vz_YTNLn6w