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D&D 5E [5E] [DM HELP!] Player Reliance on NPCs, Poor Spell Management, Poor Life Decisions

Trudy

First Post
As a player and a DM, I stick to a "Rule of Three"
As a player, I will not ask more than three questions (unless we're getting somwhere).
IE: If I ask them "Why are you here." and the NPC spits on my boot, I've got 2 more shorts before I'm no longer interested.
If I ask them "Why are you here." and they start spewing info, I will continue.
As a DM the NPC knows three important things. They may not be terribly important things but after they've divulged it I will freely inform the players "He really has nothing more to tell you." Or "You get the impression he's told you everything he knows."
-If the players refuse to discontinue engaging the NPC, I will pause the game and tell them straight up that this guy is done. I have no interest in wasting my time or everyone else's.

Similarly, I don't like to waste time haggling with shopkeeps and guards and stuff like that. Major NPCs may have more information, but they're not going to sit there and play 20 questions with the party if they have the option not to. Even then they will typically answer 3 questions, or provide 3 pieces of information before they have something else to do.

I wouldn't do anything about spell management. The only solutions here are:
A: the rest of the group tells them tough luck and pushes on.
B: the DM tells the group that a long rest is impossible here (remember you only get one per 24 hours and you need to be in a safe place).
-That's pretty much it. You can't MAKE them better at managing their spells.

I think you're overthinking the last part. The player did something silly and dumb and the guard let the player off with a finger-wagging. If the player isn't going to do it again, then it sounds like the situation is solved. I don't know how you may have run it differently, but I personally don't see the need for any kind of alternate resolution, what, the guard give him a beating? Arrest him too? Seems like an awful side-track for something very minor.

Some things are worth penalizing failure. Some things really aren't.

Like the Rule of Three -- definitely sticking that into my bag.

With regards to that last part... I guess it needs a little more context. When we came into the city, the City Guard gave us the third degree because they don't trust adventurers -- they always make a bunch of trouble. I mean there was a whole 'What are you doing here? How long are you going to be here?' scenario where it was clear the City Guard wanted to make sure that we weren't going to do anything to disturb the relative peace of the town.

This has basically never happened in any game I've played before, so I took the fact the guards were basically playing border patrol a serious indication we'd better be on our best behavior, or else we'd be in deep :):):):).

So I was pretty surprised, less than a half hour of them giving us the third degree and the accompanying speeches about expected behavior, they were just 'whatevs' when the player attempted to steal from the dude they were hauling off.

I just didn't understand why the DM would place so much emphasis on the guard expecting us to be Bright Upstanding Visitors, then not really have any repercussions for Doing The Exact Opposite Thing twenty minutes later.

So I guess here, it's not necessarily the stealing -- but the stealing after the DM's gone out of their way to emphasize that we shouldn't make trouble here, and then we do. In situations where the DM clearly lays out 'hey guys, probably not a good idea to do dumb stuff here', I think there should be repercussions when they do it anyway. Most of our DMs go the "Are you suuuuure?" route, and that's generally effective, but man, sometimes people power right through.
 

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pogre

Legend
Trudy said:
I'm running is a highly-modified, 5e-converted version of Speaker in Dreams, which takes place almost entirely in a town.

Interesting choice for your first adventure, but we had fun with it back in the day. The bright spot is you can absolutely push the PCs with having them on the clock during this scenario. My group pretty much had a disaster when I ran this in 3e and it was an absolute blast. As others have said, failing can be fun.
 

Trudy

First Post
Interesting choice for your first adventure, but we had fun with it back in the day. The bright spot is you can absolutely push the PCs with having them on the clock during this scenario. My group pretty much had a disaster when I ran this in 3e and it was an absolute blast. As others have said, failing can be fun.

I honestly have done so much work modifying this particular adventure's story (man, oh man, some of the stuff that happens in this particular adventure doesn't make sense -- I mean, taking over the Baron and then making it super obvious that you've taken over the Baron? WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT?) that I wish I wasn't doing converting on top of that. I finally managed to convert all the creatures that weren't in 5e, but now it's statting NPCs, ugh. Not my idea of a great time. (I'm trying to get that done today.)

I admit, it was pretty ambitious, but one of the players said they paged through it and it sounded interesting, so I jumped on it and ran with it.

I'm curious to know what exactly happened in your game, though!
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Thanks so much for the super-thoughtful response!

With regards to interrogation sequences... they only happen because the players make it happen. One time, we saw an NPC buried up into the neck in the dirt with "Oathbreaker" written on his forehead. Instead of having a conversation, it became a whole thing where they immediately bust out the Zone of Truth spell because they were convinced that the few answers he was willing to give weren't truthful (because he didn't know the party / the party didn't establish trust with him and he was afraid of being coup d'etated if he said the wrong thing).

I'm totally going to take your advice into account. I don't have any problems with giving the PCs the information they need to know (or where they need to go to get it), but there seems to be an extreme lack of trust between the PCs and NPCs in many of the games I play in, and I don't really know how to handle that.

Sure, they make interrogations happen, but that's the symptom of the problem, not the problem in and of itself in my view. It seems reasonable to be skeptical of an "Oathbreaker." And if there has been a lot of deception on the part of NPCs in the past, then that's all the more reason to bust out the zone of truth. Mind you, this distrust may even be due to experiences these players have had in other groups under other DMs. So a certain amount of deprogramming may be required and that's going to take time.

Time pressure in particular is part of why I'm really hype to be running Tomb of Annihilation (I'm running that after this -- this is a practice Adventure so I can get my bearings before I go full campaign). I'm going to have to think creatively about how I can change things based on how much time goes by. I'll start doing that today as I finish up my Part One notes. :)

One thing to consider is how to communicate how things might change if they dilly dally. Foreshadowing and telegraphing are your friends here. Or you can be more direct. What you're essentially giving them are the stakes for their decisions so they can understand the risks. "You CAN long rest more often, but it means X, Y, or Z. Plan accordingly." If they are not aware of the risks beforehand, then it's unlikely they will factor that into their decision-making.

We actually don't spend all that much time in a town (surprisingly!), but most of the stupid things do tend to happen in towns. The Bearded Devil thing actually happened in a dungeon. Obviously, this is going to be really great because the first adventure I'm running is a highly-modified, 5e-converted version of Speaker in Dreams, which takes place almost entirely in a town. I'm hoping that by keeping things fast-paced, or moving people along, I might be able to avoid this. I think you definitely have a point there!

Once thing I've noticed over the years with town-based adventures is there's this thing where almost every minute of the day is played out in a way that doesn't appear to happen in adventures based in other locations. So when the PCs aren't actively engaged in the events of the adventure, it's like "What do you do?" and everyone thinks they have to come up with something to fill the time. This is when you get the shopping scenes, the pickpocketing, the inane NPC interactions that go nowhere, the stabbing of the barkeep and fighting of town guard.

What you can do instead is give each player a set amount of tasks they can perform per adventuring day. These are things they can do when they aren't engaged in the events of the adventure. I recommend 1 to 3, tops. Probably just 1 for your Speaker in Dreams adventure, where 3 might be more appropriate for a full-on city-based campaign. Then think about making a list of tasks someone might do in town - resupply, gather info, work a trade, carouse, etc. Downtime activities are useful for ideas for this. None of those tasks should be anything that derails the adventure or causes pointless trouble, but do offer a benefit that can be used during the adventure (extra gold, contacts, info, etc.). Resolve quickly, maybe with a single die roll and some narration, then right back to the adventure you go.

I have something like this set up in my Sigil-based Planescape game. It's fairly complicated, so I can't share it here, but it is very good at keeping the pace of things moving forward while offering meaningful trade-offs.

Sounds like I'm going to be running with "Roll Insight. Yeah, you really don't think you're getting anything else from this guy."

Some will disagree with me here, but I would caution against telling players what their characters think or calling for ability checks when players have not described wanting to do something that has an uncertain outcome. In the particular example you give, you're basically trying to communicate something to the players about not being able to wring any more information out of the scene, but doing so in the context of the setting while using the mechanics as a form of legitimization. This is dangerous territory in my view, especially if that Insight roll turns out really low. What do you do then? Give the same result and leave the player with a disconnect between what he or she sees on the die and what you're saying? That can lead to further distrust. Better not to paint yourself into the corner with this sort of thing, I say. You can avoid it by just leveling with the players which communicates more clearly, avoids assuming character action, and stops you from telling players what their characters think. This will probably go a lot further toward establishing that trust you want to foster.

I recommend checking out the social interaction rules in the DMG. Therein, it says that the NPC should be given personal characteristics (trait, ideal, bond, flaw). After interacting with the NPC for a time, a player might describing the character as wanting to confirm one of those characteristics (which you should already have been playing up during the conversation). This can be determined with a Wisdom (Insight) check. On a success, you tell the player what the characteristic is. He or she can then play to the characteristic to gain advantage on subsequent checks to influence the NPC's attitude. On failed Insight check, the character can't determine what the characteristic is. This has the effect of giving players specific things on which to base their level of trust of the NPC. Otherwise, it's just whatever the DM says, which may or may not be true. It's much more concrete with these social interaction rules in my experience. It also gives the non-Charisma based characters a pathway to assisting in social interaction challenges by being the Insight guy or gal.
 

Nutation

Explorer
Thanks so much for the super-thoughtful response!

With regards to interrogation sequences... they only happen because the players make it happen. One time, we saw an NPC buried up into the neck in the dirt with "Oathbreaker" written on his forehead. Instead of having a conversation, it became a whole thing where they immediately bust out the Zone of Truth spell because they were convinced that the few answers he was willing to give weren't truthful (because he didn't know the party / the party didn't establish trust with him and he was afraid of being coup d'etated if he said the wrong thing).

That's actually somewhat imaginative of your players to threaten to usurp this guy's rightful rule.
 

Cyrinishad

Explorer
Thanks so much for the super-thoughtful response!

With regards to interrogation sequences... they only happen because the players make it happen. One time, we saw an NPC buried up into the neck in the dirt with "Oathbreaker" written on his forehead. Instead of having a conversation, it became a whole thing where they immediately bust out the Zone of Truth spell because they were convinced that the few answers he was willing to give weren't truthful (because he didn't know the party / the party didn't establish trust with him and he was afraid of being coup d'etated if he said the wrong thing).

I'm totally going to take your advice into account. I don't have any problems with giving the PCs the information they need to know (or where they need to go to get it), but there seems to be an extreme lack of trust between the PCs and NPCs in many of the games I play in, and I don't really know how to handle that.

Time pressure in particular is part of why I'm really hype to be running Tomb of Annihilation (I'm running that after this -- this is a practice Adventure so I can get my bearings before I go full campaign). I'm going to have to think creatively about how I can change things based on how much time goes by. I'll start doing that today as I finish up my Part One notes. :)

We actually don't spend all that much time in a town (surprisingly!), but most of the stupid things do tend to happen in towns. The Bearded Devil thing actually happened in a dungeon. Obviously, this is going to be really great because the first adventure I'm running is a highly-modified, 5e-converted version of Speaker in Dreams, which takes place almost entirely in a town. I'm hoping that by keeping things fast-paced, or moving people along, I might be able to avoid this. I think you definitely have a point there!

The "yes, and" method of roleplay is something I use routinely in text-based roleplay, so it makes sense that it'd work in tabletop too. Another thing I'll be implementing. Thanks for the advice!

Well, if you're running "The Speaker in Dreams", and have concerns about PCs that are not being Heroic... and I would consider the PCs activities that you have raised concerns about (excessive meaningless interrogations, ineffective tactics, poor resource utilization & time management, and trivial thievery) are not particularly Heroic behaviors, they are Foolish at best, and are a hairs breath away outright Villainy... Then follow the advice that is laid out on page 5 of the adventure for handling this motley crew of miscreants... Have the REAL Heroes show up and save the town from both the Monsters, and the Amateur Villain PCs...

This is not about stomping on the "fun" of the PCs, this about making a Game-World that reacts appropriately to the actions of the PCs... Then it is up to them to either become better at being Heroes, or become better at being Villains...

Also, it is important to remember that it is not the responsibility of the DM to regulate the PCs behaviors, or to force the PCs to engage in the adventure... That kind of stuff is the responsibility of the PCs to each other... It is the responsibility of the DM to regulate the NPCs behaviors (and if the NPCs are the REAL Heroes, so be it)...
 

jasper

Rotten DM
I don't think my story hour of Speaker in the Dreams from 3E is still in the forums. But yes the border patrol of peace tying fingers was stupid. Depending on the group and dm, the dm may over look some law breaking to move the story along. In fact I think I don't have the module any more.
 

Trudy

First Post
Sure, they make interrogations happen, but that's the symptom of the problem, not the problem in and of itself in my view. It seems reasonable to be skeptical of an "Oathbreaker." And if there has been a lot of deception on the part of NPCs in the past, then that's all the more reason to bust out the zone of truth. Mind you, this distrust may even be due to experiences these players have had in other groups under other DMs. So a certain amount of deprogramming may be required and that's going to take time.



One thing to consider is how to communicate how things might change if they dilly dally. Foreshadowing and telegraphing are your friends here. Or you can be more direct. What you're essentially giving them are the stakes for their decisions so they can understand the risks. "You CAN long rest more often, but it means X, Y, or Z. Plan accordingly." If they are not aware of the risks beforehand, then it's unlikely they will factor that into their decision-making.



Once thing I've noticed over the years with town-based adventures is there's this thing where almost every minute of the day is played out in a way that doesn't appear to happen in adventures based in other locations. So when the PCs aren't actively engaged in the events of the adventure, it's like "What do you do?" and everyone thinks they have to come up with something to fill the time. This is when you get the shopping scenes, the pickpocketing, the inane NPC interactions that go nowhere, the stabbing of the barkeep and fighting of town guard.

What you can do instead is give each player a set amount of tasks they can perform per adventuring day. These are things they can do when they aren't engaged in the events of the adventure. I recommend 1 to 3, tops. Probably just 1 for your Speaker in Dreams adventure, where 3 might be more appropriate for a full-on city-based campaign. Then think about making a list of tasks someone might do in town - resupply, gather info, work a trade, carouse, etc. Downtime activities are useful for ideas for this. None of those tasks should be anything that derails the adventure or causes pointless trouble, but do offer a benefit that can be used during the adventure (extra gold, contacts, info, etc.). Resolve quickly, maybe with a single die roll and some narration, then right back to the adventure you go.

I have something like this set up in my Sigil-based Planescape game. It's fairly complicated, so I can't share it here, but it is very good at keeping the pace of things moving forward while offering meaningful trade-offs.



Some will disagree with me here, but I would caution against telling players what their characters think or calling for ability checks when players have not described wanting to do something that has an uncertain outcome. In the particular example you give, you're basically trying to communicate something to the players about not being able to wring any more information out of the scene, but doing so in the context of the setting while using the mechanics as a form of legitimization. This is dangerous territory in my view, especially if that Insight roll turns out really low. What do you do then? Give the same result and leave the player with a disconnect between what he or she sees on the die and what you're saying? That can lead to further distrust. Better not to paint yourself into the corner with this sort of thing, I say. You can avoid it by just leveling with the players which communicates more clearly, avoids assuming character action, and stops you from telling players what their characters think. This will probably go a lot further toward establishing that trust you want to foster.

I recommend checking out the social interaction rules in the DMG. Therein, it says that the NPC should be given personal characteristics (trait, ideal, bond, flaw). After interacting with the NPC for a time, a player might describing the character as wanting to confirm one of those characteristics (which you should already have been playing up during the conversation). This can be determined with a Wisdom (Insight) check. On a success, you tell the player what the characteristic is. He or she can then play to the characteristic to gain advantage on subsequent checks to influence the NPC's attitude. On failed Insight check, the character can't determine what the characteristic is. This has the effect of giving players specific things on which to base their level of trust of the NPC. Otherwise, it's just whatever the DM says, which may or may not be true. It's much more concrete with these social interaction rules in my experience. It also gives the non-Charisma based characters a pathway to assisting in social interaction challenges by being the Insight guy or gal.

Thanks again for another thoughtful response!

I honestly don't know where the whole interrogation thing came from, but it's a little better in the Saturday game, when one of the two players who's usually in the rabblerousing 'Let me ask you every question in the book' group is DM and the other is not playing a Paladin. A big part of it might have to do with them being housemates. And as you pointed out, it's entirely possible that they may have had a bad history with DMs.

I personally don't play my characters as completely and totally trusting, but there has to come a point where you consider the other characters' feelings. My character, the one who ended up digging Oathbreaker guy up when he was finally fed up with that behavior, did it after it was clear the dude was totally busted, needed some water and some rest, and that regardless of what he did, this was really just cruel and he needed to be in a jail if he had actually done anything wrong, rather than frying his skin and starving while buried up to his neck. It's utterly bizarre, because my character's not usually especially compassionate to people who aren't animals (animals are rad), but the paladin sometimes comes across as a member of the Inquisition.

I have definitely and absolutely seen this happen in town-based adventures, and that's what I'm trying to avoid with in The Speaker in Dreams. Pre-session, I was thinking of asking 'What have you done in the town so far?' and giving them some amount of information based on what parts of town they ventured into, and what they saw; after that, we start in media res with the first combat of the game -- not them coming into town and having their swords bound at the gate.

We'll see. Still deliberating on this point. But 100% on the same page. I'm hoping there won't really be any downtime once they realize :):):):) Is Going Down and will instead focus on their quest.

Thanks for the tip about Social Interaction Rules -- it's been awhile since I've paged through the DMG and that's a good excuse for a refresher, if any of them.
 


Trudy

First Post
Well, if you're running "The Speaker in Dreams", and have concerns about PCs that are not being Heroic... and I would consider the PCs activities that you have raised concerns about (excessive meaningless interrogations, ineffective tactics, poor resource utilization & time management, and trivial thievery) are not particularly Heroic behaviors, they are Foolish at best, and are a hairs breath away outright Villainy... Then follow the advice that is laid out on page 5 of the adventure for handling this motley crew of miscreants... Have the REAL Heroes show up and save the town from both the Monsters, and the Amateur Villain PCs...

This is not about stomping on the "fun" of the PCs, this about making a Game-World that reacts appropriately to the actions of the PCs... Then it is up to them to either become better at being Heroes, or become better at being Villains...

Also, it is important to remember that it is not the responsibility of the DM to regulate the PCs behaviors, or to force the PCs to engage in the adventure... That kind of stuff is the responsibility of the PCs to each other... It is the responsibility of the DM to regulate the NPCs behaviors (and if the NPCs are the REAL Heroes, so be it)...

Yeah, I spoke with the DM of the other game awhile back about how some of this stuff was morally ambiguous at best, especially in the case of immediately interrogating the halfling with Oathbreaker on his forehead who'd been sunburnt and was clearly weak and half-dead and buried up to his neck in dirt in the middle of the road. I mean, seriously, just pull the dude out and give him some water, then interrogate him if need be.

I have looked through that. I told them that they can't play Evil-aligned characters in this adventure up-front, but people will find any way to justify anything. The module's pretty good at making the good decisions look obvious (e.g., saving people from a Wererat attack), so let's hope that that's enough to drive them to actually Do Some Actual Good In A Good Way, instead of hoping that the ends justifies the means.
 

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