D&D 5E [5e] Feats, what gives?

[jasper]

I feel like you are generalizing the term powergamer to much. Power Gaming/ers to me, are people who like to optimize their build in anyway. Maybe they power game towards social encounters, or out of combat abilities. And of course there are some who do combat focused builds. Just because they optimize, does not mean they think the DM is their slave, or that the game has to be a certain way. As a DM your job above all else to have fun, and make sure your players do as well without catering to one type of player. If anyone intentionally gets in the way of that, it should be discussed and they should either act appropriately or be politely removed. Being a powergamer does not auto-justify removal I think. If you have a session 0 and the players discuss what they want and you find a compromise and there is still problems, it's not a power gamer's fault or role player's fault, it's a PERSON's fault. It seems like you've just encountered people. I don't think anyone should be ostracized for their play style.

yawn...
Power gamers. People who build their pcs to try to break the game, dm, etc. They don't compromise. And will use social methods to get their way. AKA "well if it can't Peter Parker the Purple Paladin of Pittsburgh from splat book 671-176 I not going to play and since I'm Jake's ride. It is going to suck next Friday when two of us don't show."
Optimizer. People who build their pcs to just go to edge of a superior build but don't tick off the dm. AKA "ok Jasper does not like the splat book from Morris Munchkin Press. I just use the player handbook."
Of course I was stupid for 30 years and allowed power gamers, rules lawyers, and just some sleazy people join my table just so I could game.

 

[Ganymede81]

I just feel like good DM's know the have plenty of tools at their disposal to even the playing fields.

Not using the feats optional rule is one of those tools at their disposal.

 

[Gadget]

First post here! Just a question really, why do people care so much about feats leading to powergaming?

I just feel like good DM's know the have plenty of tools at their disposal to even the playing fields. Are they more worried that powergamers might outshine the roleplayer types with flavor builds? I feel like if you know you're playing for flavor, you shouldn't expect to be good in certain situations. I don't know, am I being to lackadaisical?

In the past, feats have had a tendency to induce a "build" type mentality that some tables and play styles do not enjoy. They have tended to lead to, or at least be the banner carrier for, an ever increasing 'acceptable' baseline of performance/effectiveness standard that players can feel compelled to try and match. They were especially problematic in 3e (when they were introduced) and continued to have issues in 4e. In 5e, the design of feats tends to be very hit or miss, with some adding nice flavor and diversity to a character, others leading to the perception of a 'necessity' for a certain build (Oh, you want to be a two handed melee guy? You have to take xyz feat to really realize that vision). The saving grace for feats in 5e is that, unlike its immediate predecessors, there is not an every expanding river of 'splat' books adding more and more feats to select from and optimize one's character, constantly creating new baselines for effectiveness and power (that is if you view this as a problem, many do not).

 

[Jake Hamilton]

yawn...
Power gamers. People who build their pcs to try to break the game, dm, etc. They don't compromise. And will use social methods to get their way. AKA "well if it can't Peter Parker the Purple Paladin of Pittsburgh from splat book 671-176 I not going to play and since I'm Jake's ride. It is going to suck next Friday when two of us don't show."
Optimizer. People who build their pcs to just go to edge of a superior build but don't tick off the dm. AKA "ok Jasper does not like the splat book from Morris Munchkin Press. I just use the player handbook."
Of course I was stupid for 30 years and allowed power gamers, rules lawyers, and just some sleazy people join my table just so I could game.

Again, That's just a sleazy player. Maybe I'm lost here, are people who optimize builds, with DM discretion and respect towards the game that everyone agreed to play power gamers, or are people who want perfect munchkins regardless of how the DM and fellow players think and feel power gamers? I don't think feats affect peoples choices anymore than stats or classes do.

 

[Jake Hamilton]

In the past, feats have had a tendency to induce a "build" type mentality that some tables and play styles do not enjoy. They have tended to lead to, or at least be the banner carrier for, an ever increasing 'acceptable' baseline of performance/effectiveness standard that players can feel compelled to try and match. They were especially problematic in 3e (when they were introduced) and continued to have issues in 4e. In 5e, the design of feats tends to be very hit or miss, with some adding nice flavor and diversity to a character, others leading to the perception of a 'necessity' for a certain build (Oh, you want to be a two handed melee guy? You have to take xyz feat to really realize that vision). The saving grace for feats in 5e is that, unlike its immediate predecessors, there is not an every expanding river of 'splat' books adding more and more feats to select from and optimize one's character, constantly creating new baselines for effectiveness and power (that is if you view this as a problem, many do not).

I think DND rules in general induce a build type mentality. The moment you say "roll a character". You have to think about what role you want to play, and build towards it. Like I said in a previous post, remove feats and people will still optimize stats and classes/items.

I feel like categorizing people and their playstyles is ridiculous to begin with. There's 2 types of people who play D&D, the first are the people who want to have fun making an epic story together with a few friends, the other are people who want the same thing, but for themselves at everyone else's expense.


-edit I feel like the topic got a little lost btw (due to me mostly ) let's get back to it!

 

[Mistwell]

First post here! Just a question really, why do people care so much about feats leading to powergaming?

I just feel like good DM's know the have plenty of tools at their disposal to even the playing fields. Are they more worried that powergamers might outshine the roleplayer types with flavor builds? I feel like if you know you're playing for flavor, you shouldn't expect to be good in certain situations. I don't know, am I being to lackadaisical?

Good DMs are not that common. It takes a lot of experience to become a good DM, and along that road you probably start out as a bad DM and then progress through mediocre and then acceptable and then decent before becoming a good DM. So that's years of play. 5e in particular is pouring in thousands and thousands of brand new players who have never even played a tabletop role playing game before, along with hundreds and hundreds of brand new DMs. None of them are "good" DMs on the first day.

So your premise that "a good DM..." is an assumption that's not really helpful. A good DM won't care (though they may have a good reason to exclude feats), but then a good DM is less likely to be reading a thread titled, "Feats, what gives?".

 

[jasper]

Again, That's just a sleazy player. Maybe I'm lost here, are people who optimize builds, with DM discretion and respect towards the game that everyone agreed to play power gamers, or are people who want perfect munchkins regardless of how the DM and fellow players think and feel power gamers? I don't think feats affect peoples choices anymore than stats or classes do.

people who optimize builds, with DM discretion and respect towards the game that everyone agreed to play =
optimizers.
people who want perfect munchkins regardless of how the DM and fellow players think and feel = power gamers
or to use your word. Power gamer = Sleazy player.

 

[Satyrn]

Again, That's just a sleazy player. Maybe I'm lost here, are people who optimize builds, with DM discretion and respect towards the game that everyone agreed to play power gamers, or are people who want perfect munchkins regardless of how the DM and fellow players think and feel power gamers? I don't think feats affect peoples choices anymore than stats or classes do.

I think [MENTION=277]jasper[/MENTION]'s essentially saying that feats become a tool that -when layered on top of the choices made with stats and classes - provide too many choices for his preferences, that the accumulated number of choices reach a certain threshokd it creates an environment ripe for powergaming - and he doesn't enjoy that.


So if you ignore his denigration of the style and preferences he doesn't enjoy, I read him as saying "Feats are the path to the dark side. Feats lead to choices. Choices leads to powergaming. Powergaming leads to suffering."

Well, his suffering because it's not the style he prefers.

 

[Satyrn]

but then a good DM is less likely to be reading a thread titled, "Feats, what gives?".

So, what you're saying is everyone who posted here are all bad DMs?

 

[Mistwell]

So, what you're saying is everyone who posted here are all bad DMs?

No, "less likely" doesn't equate with "would never". And I suspect a majority of people posting in general are players, given a majority of the fan base is players.