D&D 5E 5e niggles:- Multiclassing Spellcasters; Dragonborn Sorcerers; Tavern Brawler; Warlocks

[Boarstorm]

You don't actually become an eldritch Knight or arcane trickster until level 3.

 

[NerfedWizard]

You can not be a Eldritch Knight until level 3, at level 1 and 2 you are simply a Fighter.

Damn, foiled again. On looking more carefully at the rules I see that this is true, and likewise a level 1 Rogue cannot be an Arcane Trickster.

Even so, in principle I think everyone should use the same rules for spell-slots, whether multiclassed or not.

 

[SigmaOne]

Well spotted, but do you realise that this actually makes the problem worse than I first suggested? See below.



In this instance it is you who gets NO marks for reading . Because my example very clearly included multiclassing eldritch knight.

To restate my example corrected for the rules misread you've pointed out:-

3rd level paladin has 3 x level 1 spell slots. Multiclasses fighter (eldritch knight), which is a multiclass with the spellcasting feature of eldritch knight. Character now has effective level for spell slots of 1.5 + 0.33r = 1.833r, round down to 1. Paladin 3, Eldritch Knight 1 therefore has 2 x level 1 spell slots and has lost a spell slot by multiclassing. Whereas if the Paladin had multiclassed Fighter but not Eldritch Knight, he would NOT have lost the spell slot. So he actually has less magic by multiclassing into a magic-using class than by multiclassing into a non-magic-using class.

Suppose for the sake of argument that you say "yes but the Eldritch Knight doesn't actually get the spellcasting feature until 3rd level". OK. That counterargument might work (I suspect not though), depending on how we define who has or doesn't have the spellcasting feature. But that would likewise mean that you could be a level 2 Eldritch Knight, level 1 Ranger, level 1 Paladin and level 2 Arcane Trickster, and from all those classes combined you would have a grand total of zero spellcasting ability (though I suppose we probably reach that result anyway due to having no spells known at those levels of those classes, except possibly on one reading of the rules as paladin).

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but none of those classes have reached the appropriate level yet, right? So you shouldn't have any spellcasting ability. If you can't stick with something long enough to reach key benefits, you shouldn't get them. Even if your other classes are similar. I think you bring up the right interpretation --- what really goes wrong (besides your (I hope you'll agree) somewhat ridiculous example) with saying they don't have Spellcaster until they've reached the level in the class that grants it? I don't know if RAW intend this, but it seems to work pretty smoothly that way. You're guaranteed at least one spellcaster level from each spellcasting class that's reached it's minimal spellcasting level.

Edit: Double Ninja'd

 

[TwoSix]

Good point but bear in mind a short rest is a minimum of 1 hour.

Most certainly the relative frequency of short rests will have a huge impact on the power of warlocks, and other classes that are short rest dependent. (Battlemaster Fighters, frex)

To combat this, I'm planning on implementing either one of two house-rules, subject to change based on the DMG.
1) Short rests take 15 min, but you can only gain the benefit of a short rest twice before needing a long rest.
2) Short rests are 6 hours. Long rests require a full 24 hours, and a secure location.

 

[NerfedWizard]

You're guaranteed at least one spellcaster level from each spellcasting class that's reached it's minimal spellcasting level.

Yes but are Paladin and Ranger classes with the spellcasting feature at 1st level?

You could be cleric 5, druid 5, paladin 1, ranger 1 and get nothing slot-wise from ranger/paladin.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Normally I'd agree with this, but I think it's an actual issue (problem is too strong a word) here because it is something that, thematically, you'd probably want to encourage, that really works conceptually, but it's kind of annoying how it's actually slightly mechanically perverse. It's also rather more major than a couple of weapon proficiencies, imho. Personally I think it makes sense to just give a Dragonborn Dragonblooded Sorcerer an extra language and allow him to use the 6th level Sorcerer ability on a different element (rather getting into fiddly "how many resistances!?" stuff as the OP suggests).

What about a caveat on the 6th level ability that if you already have a resistance to the element associated with your bloodline, you can choose to automatically gain advantage on a saving throw against that element, once per short rest? Or, if that seems a bit to weak and/or situational, what about an automatic save or even immunity to said element once per short rest (maybe your bloodline is from a Legendary dragon )

Whatever the case, I do agree this is a bit different than an elven fighter overlapping his sword/bow profs, but I don't think giving an additional elemental resistance is quite right thematically for the bloodline concepts

Disclaimer: I'm a poor soul without a PHB yet

 

[TwoSix]

Yes but are Paladin and Ranger classes with the spellcasting feature at 1st level?

You could be cleric 5, druid 5, paladin 1, ranger 1 and get nothing slot-wise from ranger/paladin.

Paladins and rangers get spellcasting at level 2.

Still, I see your point. Paladins and rangers get extra spell slots every other level, like the multiclass rule would suggest. But they're getting the bump at the odd levels; if their progression matched the multiclassing rule, they would be getting their spellcasting bump on the even levels. Interestingly, EK and Arcane Trickster do the same thing, getting their spell bump at 4, 7, 10, etc., when the multiclass progression suggests they should get it at 6, 9, 12, etc. Basically, partial casters get their spellcasting level rounded UP.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

What about a caveat on the 6th level ability that if you already have a resistance to the element associated with your bloodline, you can choose to automatically gain advantage on a saving throw against that element, once per short rest? Or, if that seems a bit to weak and/or situational, what about an automatic save or even immunity to said element once per short rest (maybe your bloodline is from a Legendary dragon )

Bolded bit seems like a really solid suggestion, yeah, I'd go with that!

 

[Tormyr]

Good point but bear in mind a short rest is a minimum of 1 hour.

Once you have got to the point of having a short rest, in most practical situations (unless artificially DM'd to constrain the party) you would be able to take a long rest if you really wanted. After all, 1 hour of not being attacked or placed under strong pressure is enough time to make your escape. Plus, the cleric Channel Divinity power does regenerate after a short rest.

I guess if you assume that the average adventuring day is broken up by one short rest the warlock is on a par with the cleric at around 8th level, and if two short rests then the warlock is ahead.

Plus I was a bit naughty in that I deliberately overlooked Thirsting Blade, which is probably the best lowish level invocation. My reasoning for overlooking it is that you shouldn't have to choose the strictly optimal options in order to pull your weight.

Don't forget you can only benefit from a long rest once every 24 hours. You can fit two or three short rests in that time if the party is good about finding a safe place to not be interrupted for an hour.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Warlocks

I saw a poll on here which suggests Warlocks have "won" the PHB. Really? They seem quite underpowered to me, compared specifically to clerics, which have the same hit points, better armour, shields, the best possible spell-slots and more base cantrips than a warlock, plus in effect the ability to turn/destroy undead, and domain features. To make up for this warlocks have up to eight invocations and also have pact magic features. But how strong are these?

For instance, up to 8th level, Light domain gives clerics extra spells known (fireball!), a bonus cantrip (!), disadvantage an attacker x Wis mod between long rests, radiance of the dawn (as an alternative to turn undead), and at 8th add your wis mod to cantrip damage.

Compare this to a 9th level infernal warlock with pact of the tome who gains a similar expanded spell list (fireball!), about 12-13 temp hitpoints when he reduces a foe to 0 hitpoints (so only kicks in when you are winning, not when you are desperate) - let's say that balances with turn/destroy undead, then the luck advantage (let's say that balances the disadvantage attacker thing, though doubtful), and 5 invocations. With pact of the tome the warlock has the same number of cantrips as the cleric (5).

Invocations include agonizing blast (inferior to the cleric add wis mod to cantrip damage thing), armour of shadows (not a match for the cleric's armour + shield advantage), and three others. Let's say the warlock chooses bewitching whispers and sign of ill omen - these effectively simply expand the warlock's spell-list in a minor way. Then he chooses whispers of the grave - speak with the dead at will. Now that in itself could be potent, but it's very narrowly focused, and non-combat. Then the warlock has two 5th level spell-slots and the cleric has no 5th, but 2 4th, 3 3rd, 3 2nd and 4 1st.

Am I missing something here? The 9th level warlock seems to me to be about as potent as a 7th level cleric. Then at high levels he doesn't even retain his advantage of having the highest level spell slots - mystic arcanum being limited to 1 slot per spell level 6th-9th.

Okay, a few issues:

1. All three of the pacts, in themselves, do little to boost your combat effectiveness most of the time. It's when you combine them with the pact-specific invocations that they become powerful.

2. My reading of Agonizing Blast is that you add damage to each blast. (That way, it more or less keeps up with at-will DPR from other classes.) This really needs to be officially clarified, though.

3. The absolute key to making an effective warlock is invocation and spell selection. If you don't plan these out carefully, you can flat out miss what's basically a core class feature. Hex, for example, adds to your damage for pretty much a whole encounter, since it transfers from one target to the next and doesn't have a saving throw. And if you DON'T take Agonizing Blast or Thirsting Blade, you're really screwing yourself. But if you plan this stuff out carefully, you can have a quite effective character, IMHO.