D&D 5E (2014) 5e Updates: Monstrous Compendium

[imeannoharm]

I have added the Great Wyrm Red Dragon per @Just Passing Through 's request. I will probably revisit this after I finish the rest of the dragons, but this is a good starting point for what I am thinking about for great wyrm dragons.

Now I really am taking a bit of a break!

Alright, your 15 minutes are over XD
Suggestions for Neutral Evil Archfiends? Starting the General of Gehenna, perhaps seven exarchs, four horsemen, Oinodaemon, etc.

 

[Just Passing Through]

Above greatwyrm you're in dragon god territory. Dragons that powerful should, IMO, be unique creatures and you can give them stats similar to a deity, archfiend, or other power entity.

As an example, the greatwyrm red is a mythic monster. You can make it more powerful just by giving it more mythic stages, increase its CR, or both. I guess following the pattern I've started:

Greatwrym (mythic)
Minor Dragon god*: higher CR, probably about 27-31 depending on type, (i.e. a CR 31 red should be more powerful than a CR 25 mythic red)
Lesser Dragon god*: higher CR 28-32 + mythic
Intermediate Dragon god*: Higher CR 35-39
Major Dragon god*: Higher CR 36-40 + mythic
Greater Dragon god*: Higher CR 43-47
Great Dragon: Highest CR 47-50 + Mythic

Of course you could use multiple stages of mythic instead.

*dragon gods are not true deities, they are just really old and powerful dragons that rule over their lesser kin, IMO.

It seems a bit strange to jump from mythic to non mythic with a higher CR, then jump back to mythic again and repeat the pattern. Especially as the bounded accuracy nature of 5e means that increasing CR by just 5 or so levels will probably result in the mythic dragon winning in a fight (doubled hit points will mean that it will likely outlast the non mythic dragon, because 5 CRs does not lead to a very big numbers advantage for the non mythic dragon).

I would probably just go with them being either mythic or non mythic all the way up.

*I am personally not a big fan of this approach, almost every other mortal species has gods specific to that species, and every single edition of dnd since 1e has dragon deities. Dragons and their deities should be special...but I do not think the solution to that should be not having them have deities at all.

 

[Just Passing Through]

I have added the Great Wyrm Red Dragon per @Just Passing Through 's request. I will probably revisit this after I finish the rest of the dragons, but this is a good starting point for what I am thinking about for great wyrm dragons.

Now I really am taking a bit of a break!

Edit

 

[dave2008]

It seems a bit strange to jump from mythic to non mythic with a higher CR, then jump back to mythic again and repeat the pattern. Especially as the bounded accuracy nature of 5e means that increasing CR by just 5 or so levels will probably result in the mythic dragon winning in a fight (doubled hit points will mean that it will likely outlast the non mythic dragon, because 5 CRs does not lead to a very big numbers advantage for the non mythic dragon).

I would probably just go with them being either mythic or non mythic all the way up.

It is just a thought exercise at this point. The CR jump should 7. So that would leave the higher CR dragon a little stronger than the mythic dragon 7 CR below. Here is a comparison:

Mythic CR 22 dragon:
XP = 82,000 (effective)
HP 490 X 2 = 980 (effective)
DPR = 160

Legendary CR 29 dragon:
XP = 135,000
HP = 805
DPR = 304

The mythic dragon has 22% more HP, but the Legendary dragon has 90% more DPR. The thought was to spend that DPR budget to give the higher CR dragon slighly more HP and higher AC then the mythic version, along with better attack bonuses. I haven't tried it yet so I don't know if it works. I was just a quick thought experiment to provide a different type of advancement. The easier thing to do is just increase CR or mythic stages, but I like to try new things out and see what works.

*I am personally not a big fan of this approach, almost every other mortal species has gods specific to that species, and every single edition of dnd since 1e has dragon deities. Dragons and their deities should be special...but I do not think the solution to that should be not having them have deities at all.

That is fine. Everyone has there thing. However, this is indead how dragons were potrayed in basic D&D (BECMI) from 1983 - 1994. There were the dragon "rulers" and the Great Dragon. They had abilities like gods ("Immortals" in BECMI), but they were a separate thing. Now some gods / immortals took the shape of a dragon, but they were gods, not true dragons. Just wanted to clarify that I that my choice stems from nostalgia for the D&D I grew up with, not some made up whimsy. FYI, It is also reminiscent of many Asian mythologies with power dragon rulers who are god-like, but not actually gods.

 

[dave2008]

Alright, your 15 minutes are over XD
Suggestions for Neutral Evil Archfiends? Starting the General of Gehenna, perhaps seven exarchs, four horsemen, Oinodaemon, etc.

Absolutely, I am always interested in the daemon/yugoloth lords. Personally I prefer the "General of Gehenna" to be mirage created either by the Oinodaemon or the hags (can't remember what they are called) to create confusion, stress, fear, etc. There is no "General of Gehenna," it is just the Oinodaemon by another name, at least that is my thought.

PS I am a big believer in Anthraxus

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

There is no "General of Gehenna," it is just he Oinodaemon by another name, at least that is my thought.

Mine too

PS I am a big believer in Anthraxus

Me too

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I really like Demogorgon at mythic CR28ish and Tiamat (the uber dragon) being CR30ish. Closer to WotC, not just bigger numbers and actually sort of fightable for 20th lvl tricked out parties with some boons.
A bit concerned with 'regular' dragons going so high, not too mention Amman, who is not even that big a player. IMO it's more difficult to make great difficult monsters in the late CR twenties or so, than just adding bigger and bigger numbers.
Not trying to rain on any parades, just some input for thought.

 

[dave2008]

@Just Passing Through:
After reviewing my idea I tend to agree that flip-flopping back and forth between legendary and mythic is not the nest way. I think I will probably just go with once dragons hit mythic, the just increase in CR as they get more powerful (higher CR mythic versions).

So to revise my chart:
Greatwrym (mythic) CR 21-25
Minor Dragon god: (mythic) CR 26-30
Lesser Dragon god: (mythic) CR 31-35
Intermediate Dragon god: (mythic) CR 36-40
Major Dragon god: (mythic) CR 41-45
Great Dragon: (mythic) CR 50

 

[dave2008]

I really like Demogorgon at mythic CR28ish and Tiamat (the uber dragon) being CR30ish. Closer to WotC, not just bigger numbers and actually sort of fightable for 20th lvl tricked out parties with some boons.
A bit concerned with 'regular' dragons going so high, not too mention Amman, who is not even that big a player. IMO it's more difficult to make great difficult monsters in the late CR twenties or so, than just adding bigger and bigger numbers.
Not trying to rain on any parades, just some input for thought.

I'm all about bigger numbers man! And there will be more powerful versions of Demogorgon and Tiamat to come. I will keep these puny versions up though.

Personally, when it comes to gods and archfiends, I'm not to worried about making things for groups at 20th lvl + a few boons. I want those beast to be over-the-top. However, the great thing with the mythic stages and you can stop at any stage and tailor the difficulty of the encounter. To use your example, you can fight Annam as:

Legendary Annam: 1,230 HP
Mythic Annam: 2,230 HP
Mythic Annam, Stage 2: 3,330 HP
Mythic Annam, Stage 3: 4,330 HP

This way you get 4 different levels of threat. He can discorporate (need to clarify that in the traits) at any stage of the process. It can work for people who want to just use a 20th level + a few boons or someone who is using a epic lvl 30 or even 40 pc. And it accommodates different size groups that way as well. Of course it is not just bigger numbers. Most stages bring new options to the table as well. I hope to emphasize this more as I get better at them.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

But why not stay closer to 3e, 4e and 5e CRs, and then let the number of mythic stages be the upscaling factor, like you considered in an earlier post?

Edit: myself I'm thinking a base CR of the 4e CR minus 5 (except Gods) . So Demogorgon CR29, Tiamat CR30,Orcus CR28, Ancient Red Dragon CR25, Lolth CR34 and so on (minor adjustment for some monsters like the Tarrasque).