D&D 5E 5E's "Missed Opportunities?"

[Oofta]

I understand why they didn't have a magic item price list, because it's easier to add things in later than it is to take things away. Because no matter how much you say everything is optional, some people will inevitably assume it's core.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to have a list as a starting point. That and a castle builder's guide, a guild builder's guide, etc like I alluded to in my previous post. Oh, and as well as i'm wishing for things a pony would be nice too. Well, a magic pony that feeds itself and cleans up after itself. That flies, because that would be awesome. Hmm ... come to think of it, winter is coming. So maybe a flying Delorean would be a better choice. As long as it has a Mr Fusion we'll be all set. I'll even compromise and not require it to time travel because I can be reasonable.

In the meantime I'll probably head over to dmsguild to see if I can find anything.

 

[Lanefan]

The issue with magic shoppes with more or less on-demand items ...

This is the key element right here: on-demand.

3e dropped the ball here, either by design or not, in that magic available in a place was based simply on total value. Players were then often left to assume anything they wanted up to that total value was available, and thus it became an on-demand system - even more so with the ease of PC item creation starting at low-ish levels.

isn't simply that magic is no longer rare and mysterious - it warps how characters are equipped. Quirky, sometimes-useful items get sold for the ol', reliable Big 6 (or their closest equivalents in 5e). It didn't help that too many of the multi-function items in 3e were overpriced to exacerbate that problem. That ended up being a much bigger change to the way D&D was played when considering the evolution of the game from 1e through 3e than, I think, anybody expected.

Agreed.

If there's to be a magic item economy - and I've no problem at all if there is - what's available at any given time and place has to be largely randomized. And yes, making random tables that function well for this purpose, and that are easily expandable, and that are easy to use, is a lot of work*. But, as I often say about these things, it's work that really only has to be done once.

* - I know this because I've done most of it, with help from someone who knows Excel better than I do.

The most tedious part is entering all the data.

The hardest part is randomizing all the weapon and armour properties in such a way that they can combine. Weapons, for example, have to look at each of the following: weapon class (handheld, missile launcher, ammunition - each of these can have different properties), weapon type (e.g. longsword, hand axe, sling bullet), root '+' (which can be straight e.g. +2 or staggered e.g. +1 to hit, +3 damage), intelligence, lighting effects (does it glow all the time, or just when wielded, or never at all, or flash once on activation, etc.), and special properties and curses of which a weapon can - rarely - have multiples of each.

And then it has to assign prices to whatever it generates. Still haven't got this part 100% right but it's close enough for rock and roll.

So a party might walk into town and <runs the program for 5 items> find the following items happen to be available at the moment:

Bardic instrument: Lute (8th level version as per DMG) - 8000 g.p.
Folding Boat - 11000 g.p.
Potion of Stone Giant Strength - 800 g.p.
Scroll: Nature Cleric (Druid), 2 spells - [the scroll's value is determined by what the spells are, this program doesn't give me those]
Gloves of Missile Snaring - 10000 g.p.

In the next town you might find <two keystrokes, runs program for another 5 items>

Potion of Ventriloquism - 400 g.p.
Scale Mail +1 - 1500 g.p.
Sling Stone +1, batch of 2d6 - 60 g.p. each
Wand of Paralyzation, MU only - 8000 [here I'd have to randomly determine charges outside the program and adjust the price down if there aren't many left]
Bag of Devouring (cursed) - 0 g.p. [depending on circumstance and random roll I might present this as a cursed item or as a bag of holding]

Having available items randomized like this strips out the on-demand problem.

Lan-"taxes, tithes, brokerage fees and delivery not included; all purchases final sale; no warranty or suitability for use is either expressed or implied"-efan

 

[Satyrn]

And yes, making random tables that function well . . . and that are easily expandable, and that are easy to use, is a lot of work.

Preach it, brother!

My Wandering Monster tables still aren't there yet. I started with one area where I first roll 1d8 to determine the status of the area for the current day, and which of 8 subtables to use for future checks. I really kind of regret carrying the idea of a "randomized daily status" forward to several other areas . . . but dang does it make the place feel more alive to me.

 

[Lanefan]

The fact bounded accuracy allows you to remain function (well, sort of, at least) as a level 20 character with no magic equipment does not preclude the system setting an utility-based price on a +3 Vorpal Axe.

(Now "vorpal" is considerably nerfed in 5E, but otherwise I would like to argue it's perfectly fine for there to be top-end items out of financial reach of even top-level heroes. After all, that doesn't mean there can't be any Vorpal Axes in the game, only that they need to be looted off of corpses rather than merely bought or constructed.)

In short I see no reason why a 3E-style pricing scheme wouldn't be just as fun in 5E, even though nothing would be strictly needed on the scale of "absolutely mandatory" as in that edition and even moreso in 4E.

Yeah, making it - or even implying it - to be mandatory would fight against what 5e is trying to achieve, I think. But as an option - sure, why not.

Remember, the underlying reason for having pricing and creation is that it is fun

Pricing? Yes. Creation? A rabbit hole best avoided.

Only a rarity-based mechanic wrecks that fun, since it isn't good for its purpose - allowing gold to be used as a balancing factor (low-level heroes have little gold, high-level heroes have a lot).

Rarity makes sense, though; and any randomization has to allow for such. Common potions (healing, invisibility, diminution) should be much more likely to be found for sale than +5 Holy Avengers.

And the even-more-overarching purpose is exactly this: since D&D have awarded mountains of gold since the dawn of time, there needs to be an outlet for that gold.

While donating to churches or setting up thieves guilds is fine and dandy, downtime remains essentially incompatible with the main playing style that every official 5E campaign supplement to date assumes.

The game needs to provide an official "uptime outlet" as an alternative to all its downtime outlets. Sorry WotC, but that's just a basic fact.

I suggest it needs to provide multiple uptime outlets rather than just the one. Training costs IMO count as an uptime outlet; sure the training itself is done in downtime but the direct benefit comes in uptime. Item purchase is an uptime outlet - but if you can buy it you can sell it: don't forget item sales represent an uptime inlet! Spell components or costs - particularly sacrifices required for some clerical spells - can be a big uptime outlet. And so on...

Lan-"easy come, easy go"-efan

 

[Lanefan]

Preach it, brother!

My Wandering Monster tables still aren't there yet. I started with one area where I first roll 1d8 to determine the status of the area for the current day, and which of 8 subtables to use for future checks. I really kind of regret carrying the idea of a "randomized daily status" forward to several other areas . . . but dang does it make the place feel more alive to me.

There's a thread in General right now you might be interested in, where someone's presented the idea of a "hex flower" randomizer wherein the current state influences what future states can be achieved and the odds of getting there. It's complicated at first glance, but on second look it's actually quite an elegant solution for this sort of thing.

Thread's called "Random table with an inbuilt memory..."

 

[Krachek]

A system that tie gold, magic item and training is a pit fall avoided. Not a missing opportunity.

 

[CapnZapp]

Rarity makes sense, though; and any randomization has to allow for such. Common potions (healing, invisibility, diminution) should be much more likely to be found for sale than +5 Holy Avengers.

The only rarity factor needs to be price. After all, a Lamborghini is much more rare than a Fiat Panda. So, yes, a 50 gp potion will be much more commonly found than a 500,000 gp Holy Avenger. All local shrines in low-level towns will sell you a Potion of Healing. A Holy Avenger is not likely to be for sale anywhere short of epic-level locations.

But Wizards are talking about something else with their rarity. They're talking about it as if magic items were objects of art. Fine paintings. Exotic artifacts. Here price is driven almost solely by scarcity, not function.

A Mona Lisa does not do you any more good than Crying Boy, after all. Both decorate your wall, and that's pretty much it. One is exactly as useful as the other to you when you're deep into the Mines of Kobold - that is to say, not useful at all. Their utility price is (close to) 0 gp.

But we're not interested in this. We're interested in pricing equipment, things that help you on your adventures.

Rarity is useless for this purpose. I don't care if my +1 Sword says IKEA or Guggenheim. As long as it performs as a sword, gives +1 to attacks and damage, and ignores damage resistance to non-magical weapons, both the IKEA and the Guggenheim sword should carry equal price tags. I don't care if there's ten IKEA swords for sale and only one Guggenheim.

So rarity makes sense until it doesn't.

 

[Parmandur]

The only rarity factor needs to be price. After all, a Lamborghini is much more rare than a Fiat Panda. So, yes, a 50 gp potion will be much more commonly found than a 500,000 gp Holy Avenger. All local shrines in low-level towns will sell you a Potion of Healing. A Holy Avenger is not likely to be for sale anywhere short of epic-level locations.

But Wizards are talking about something else with their rarity. They're talking about it as if magic items were objects of art. Fine paintings. Exotic artifacts. Here price is driven almost solely by scarcity, not function.

A Mona Lisa does not do you any more good than Crying Boy, after all. Both decorate your wall, and that's pretty much it. One is exactly as useful as the other to you when you're deep into the Mines of Kobold - that is to say, not useful at all. Their utility price is (close to) 0 gp.

But we're not interested in this. We're interested in pricing equipment, things that help you on your adventures.

Rarity is useless for this purpose. I don't care if my +1 Sword says IKEA or Guggenheim. As long as it performs as a sword, gives +1 to attacks and damage, and ignores damage resistance to non-magical weapons, both the IKEA and the Guggenheim sword should carry equal price tags. I don't care if there's ten IKEA swords for sale and only one Guggenheim.

So rarity makes sense until it doesn't.

Rarity accomplishes that. Per the DMG guidelines, both would be worth ~501-5000 GP, as Rare items. The system reflects utility, in flexible bands. A Holy Avenger is, essentially, priceless.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Remember, the underlying reason for having pricing and creation is that it is fun

The corollary is that the underlying reason for not having pricing is that it (where it = "magic items as tradable commodities") is not fun.

One man's meat and all that.

 

[Lanefan]

The only rarity factor needs to be price. After all, a Lamborghini is much more rare than a Fiat Panda. So, yes, a 50 gp potion will be much more commonly found than a 500,000 gp Holy Avenger. All local shrines in low-level towns will sell you a Potion of Healing. A Holy Avenger is not likely to be for sale anywhere short of epic-level locations.

Ah, but I don't break my towns down by level like that. It's more of a random roll based on the city size; and it's possible at the extremes to find nothing at all in a major city and a mighty artifact in a village.

But Wizards are talking about something else with their rarity. They're talking about it as if magic items were objects of art. Fine paintings. Exotic artifacts. Here price is driven almost solely by scarcity, not function.

Trying to overlay a Magic-card-style rarity structure, is all that is. Pointless.

A Mona Lisa does not do you any more good than Crying Boy, after all. Both decorate your wall, and that's pretty much it. One is exactly as useful as the other to you when you're deep into the Mines of Kobold - that is to say, not useful at all. Their utility price is (close to) 0 gp.

But we're not interested in this. We're interested in pricing equipment, things that help you on your adventures.

Mostly. Some very desireable magic items are more useful when you're not adventuring.

Rarity is useless for this purpose. I don't care if my +1 Sword says IKEA or Guggenheim. As long as it performs as a sword, gives +1 to attacks and damage, and ignores damage resistance to non-magical weapons, both the IKEA and the Guggenheim sword should carry equal price tags. I don't care if there's ten IKEA swords for sale and only one Guggenheim.

Here you're talking about rarity levels among the same thing; a +1 longsword is a +1 longsword and unless there's some serious lore attached to it (or a bunch of inlaid gems!) the price will always be close to the same. I'm talking about rarity levels among different things.

Should a Ring of Protection +1 be as common to find as a Ring of Sustenance, even though they're the same* price? Personally, I have it that the RoP is somewhat more common; and both are more common than a Ring of Jumping which is also the same price. The relative rarity is set by the odds of hitting them in the items table, same idea as in the 1e DMG.

* - in my system, anyway; and all prices I'm quoting in this thread are from that.

In general, price and rarity kinda-sorta go hand in hand, but there's some glaring exceptions; for example a Ring of Elemental Command goes for about 6 times the price of a Ring of Chameleon Power, yet the RoEC is more common (relatively speaking; both are fairly unusual).