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D&D 5E 5th edition design notes: Feats

NotAYakk

Legend
I think getting rid of numerical tweaking via feats would be worth it. Because, really, a +3 to your damage is a boring ability (even if it is effective). If you need that +3 to your damage, why not just give it to the character?

What if feats where purely aimed at being acquired and optional class and race Features? And, while we are at it, pare down the number from the current 18 by end-epic.

Your class and race can provide some supply of optional features. Your paragon paths and epic destinies can add others (ie, instead of just having features you always get, each would be expected to include about 4 optional features you can pick up).

With fewer of them, the size of each of them can be larger. And they could even do more than one thing in some cases.
 

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Stalker0

Legend
To me, static bonuses are fine as long as they are low key enough.

As others have said, I don't feel weapon focus is a must have feat, +1/+2 or +3 to damage isn't critical to my character. I choose it often, but I've made characters without it to.

I don't even feel the +1 attack bonus feat is a must have (though its certainly strong). Its when it goes to +2/+3 that it starts becoming ridiculous.

I also like situational static bonuses, unfortunately in my mind WOTC underestimates how powerful a situational bonus needs to be to make it worth it.

If I get a bonus to attacks when an ally is adjacent and I'm bloodied and I use an encounter power or better attack....the attack bonus better be pretty significant.
 

eamon

Explorer
I think getting rid of numerical tweaking via feats would be worth it. Because, really, a +3 to your damage is a boring ability (even if it is effective). If you need that +3 to your damage, why not just give it to the character?
Because some people would rather have an extra feat to use for other purposes. As long as it's not overpowering (or almost equivalently, a feat tax), it's a perfectly fine choice.

Also, it's absolutely necessary to have this kind of simple options to satisfy players that don't wont complex character sheets. Simplicity is a good thing.
 

spaceLem

Explorer
I really like the OP's ideas for feats. Feat choice paralysis is something that spoils the game for me, and I'd really rather have either a much simpler list of feats that provide static bonuses or extras, or just do away with them all together.

Examples of good feats are: a +2 bonus to fire damage, or a bonus to saves vs fire for a fire mage; a +1 to accuracy with light blades for a rogue; heavy armour training for a barbarian; an extra healing surge etc. You should be able to look at feats and say "I can tell what kind of person that is" (so things that fit the flavour), rather than "I can see how that character might approach a fight" (which is the optimisation angle).

I know it might sound boring, but I feel the flavour of the character should come from the way you play it, not because you've chained up a list of odd options that make the character situationally good.
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
I also like situational static bonuses, unfortunately in my mind WOTC underestimates how powerful a situational bonus needs to be to make it worth it.

I'd just like to add that I classify situational bonus feats completely different from static bonus feats: if a feat is changing what you do on the battlefield, then it's not boring.

I also get the impression that the situational bonus feats are designed in a vacuum: which sort of works IF you assume that everyone gets the static bonus feats first.

Unfortunately that just means that people are forced to not get those interesting feats they want until later.

I guess the difficulty is that working the situational feats (especially ones that encourage tactical choices) so that there isn't some character type who essentially treats them as permanent bonuses is difficult. That means that making the bonus they grant higher than those for static feats is a difficult thing to justify.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
I really like the OP's ideas for feats. Feat choice paralysis is something that spoils the game for me, and I'd really rather have either a much simpler list of feats that provide static bonuses or extras, or just do away with them all together.

Examples of good feats are: a +2 bonus to fire damage, or a bonus to saves vs fire for a fire mage; a +1 to accuracy with light blades for a rogue; heavy armour training for a barbarian; an extra healing surge etc. You should be able to look at feats and say "I can tell what kind of person that is" (so things that fit the flavour), rather than "I can see how that character might approach a fight" (which is the optimisation angle).

I know it might sound boring, but I feel the flavour of the character should come from the way you play it, not because you've chained up a list of odd options that make the character situationally good.

Those might be good things, but they cannot really be good in the same category.

+1 accuracy in a 4e type system is about a 10% boost to your offensive abilities if you can trigger it constantly.

A bonus to saves vs. fire -- it would have to be near-immunity, because unlike the other things, you have no control over if you are fighting a fire opponent or not.

+2 bonus to fire damage means that your character is going to either be strong if they choose all-fire powers and avoid fire-resistant monsters (which, of course, is not under your PCs control), or weak if they end up splitting their damage over multiple kinds (because the feat is now pretty sub-par).

Heavy armor as a barbarian could be on par -- what it does is it frees up the Barbarians secondary stat from mattering to the Barbarian's AC in 4e. That could have huge, or tiny, design implications. (it now takes 3 feats to hit plate as a barbarian, and 15 con or so.)

---

The "Expertise" feats from the essentials look like better feats along these lines. Some boring (yet powerful) static bonus, and then a flavourful minor conditional bonus.

"Fire Mage Specialization: Gain a +1 feat bonus to damage per tier with arcane power damage rolls, and +1d6 fire damage per tier on a critical hit with all arcane powers. When you use a power with the fire keyword, you instead have a +2 feat bonus per tier to your damage rolls."

You'll see that the above feat is many-fold. It rewards you for using fire spells with an extra +1 damage/tier. It gives you fire crit damage, turning even your non-fire spells into fire damage. It also grants you a baseline damage/power boost, that applies in every situation. Cold Mage Specialization might look quite similar (except it slows on a crit instead of +1d6 damage, immobilizing if the target is already slowed).

Wand Expertise: You gain a +1 feat bonus to accuracy per tier when using a wand. Once per attack while using a wand when you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll, you may reroll the attack roll. When attacking a creature you hit last round, you ignore cover and concealment (but not superior cover/concealment) when using a wand.

Here we have an expertise feat. It has the large static bonus effect, plus a few flavorful riders. Here, I split the element bonus-to-damage feats from the tool bonus-to-accuracy feats.

Ideally we'd do the same with martial powers -- have keywords on powers that we key off our damage-bonus feats, and keywords on weapons we key off our accuracy-bonus feats.

The point is to avoid "you get a +1 bonus to some number that will always apply, and nothing else" feats: balancing those feats against situational feats is nearly impossible. Either players who like situational/flavourful feats are screwed because the boring feats are optimal, or the players who like the boring feats are screwed because the situational feats open up a world of "cheese" that breaks the game.

By having both in each feat -- both a boring boost, and a situational thing -- you can have a non-trivial power upgrade from the feat (from the boring boost), and something interesting (the situational feature of the feat).
 
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Camelot

Adventurer
4e is actually starting to solve the problem of Choice Paralysis. They've started to group feats into categories in the summary tables, which lets you easily find feats that you meet the prerequisites for. Just look at the Dark Sun Campaign Setting feat section and you'll see what I mean.

And they're not stopping there. From Essentials on, feats will be grouped by "type." So, if you want feats that increase your toughness, you go to the "Toughness" section of feats. This basically gives you a range of 5-6 choices, your "ideal," all but eliminating choice paralysis.

I personally like the proliferation of feats. They make it possible to make unique characters. Sometimes, I'll see a feat that has crazy prerequisites such that only one character would ever pick it, and I get an idea for a character based on that feat. That wouldn't happen if all the feats were "+1 this or +2 that," and characters would become cookie cutters.
 

Stalker0

Legend
"Fire Mage Specialization: Gain a +1 feat bonus to damage per tier with arcane power damage rolls, and +1d6 fire damage per tier on a critical hit with all arcane powers. When you use a power with the fire keyword, you instead have a +2 feat bonus per tier to your damage rolls."

Wand Expertise: You gain a +1 feat bonus to accuracy per tier when using a wand. Once per attack while using a wand when you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll, you may reroll the attack roll. When attacking a creature you hit last round, you ignore cover and concealment (but not superior cover/concealment) when using a wand.

I like these conceptually, its a good idea. The fire mage might be a bit on the strong side (since its basically weapon focus + more goodies). You could probably take out the +1d6 fire damage and +2 damage for fire attacks and say that on a crit you can add teh fire keyword to your attack.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
I like these conceptually, its a good idea. The fire mage might be a bit on the strong side (since its basically weapon focus + more goodies). You could probably take out the +1d6 fire damage and +2 damage for fire attacks and say that on a crit you can add teh fire keyword to your attack.
It being "weapon focus, plus" is part of the point. Much like the new expertise coming with essentials are "expertise, plus" feats. The boring part -- the +1/tier bonus to nearly all damage rolls -- is strong, but boring.

You then add additional riders that are flavourful.

So, in a hypothetical 5e, we might have base feats:
+1/tier damage
+1/tier to-hit
+1/tier NAD (maybe even each!)
+1/tier AC
19-20 crit range
+1 healing surge/tier
+1/tier saving throws
+max HP
+crit damage boost
(9-11 categories)

Each race would get:
Racial power upgrade (paragon tier)
Second racial power (heroic tier)
Racial static bonuses (scaling)
(3 categories)

Then defenders will get:
Increased passive mark punishment (- to hit)
Increased active mark punishment (damage, etc)
Increased defence boost (wide resist, defence boost, etc)
Secondary role boost
(4 categories)

and similar for other roles.

That is 16-18 different feat "types" off the top of my head.

Each feat would have the "core bonus", like the above, and then "secondary bonuses" -- situational, lesser bonuses that the player should not have control over. ...

Speaking of which, a better fire specialization feat:
+1/tier feat bonus with implement powers. (core bonus)
Reduce monster's resistance to fire by 5 per tier. (situational bonus)
Ongoing 5/10/20 fire damage (save ends) on 1 crit per round with an fire power. (hard to control bonus)

The +1/tier feat bonus is the core bonus.

Reduced monster fire resistance is not useful under the players control. Crit-only ongoing fire damage is not something the player can control that well, but adds to the "I'm a fire mage" feel.

You could go further, and allow the player to make the bonus feat damage fire damage.
 
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