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D&D 5E 5th Edition Intelligence

NotActuallyTim

First Post
The usefullness of INT as an ability check in 5e depends on how much information it's possible to gather from setting details not necessarily known by the players (The various knowledge skills) and how much information can be determined by thinking about already known facts.

If there's a lot of information the players need on the particular intricacies of the spells in a wizard's tower, INT(Arcana) is unbeatable in value. If players are great at figuring stuff out for themselves from descriptions and facts, INT(Investigation) isn't going to be rolled very often.

Likewise, if the players know more about every spell ever cast in that particular setting than DM ever could, INT(Arcana) is of little use. If players consistently find all the information they need to go forward, and then just can't put it all together quite right, INT(Investigation) becomes the most important skill+stat combo in the game.
 

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jgsugden

Legend
Role vs roll: If a being could choose to do something with no realistic chance of failure, the character should be capable to just declare the action. If they wanted to do it, but in a real world equivalent situation there would be a chance of failure Anda significance in game if they fail, they should roll. Per the PHB, intelligence should be used for the roll when you need to draw on logic, education, memory or deductive reasoning.

If you told the players something that might be forgotten? Roll. If the roll succeeds, tell the players if they forgot. If the roll fails, congratulate the players on being smarter than their characters,but the characters forgot so a player that remembers should act like they don't.

Meet a sphinx with a riddle? Roll. If they succeed, give the players hints until they get the riddle themselves. If they fail and a player figures it out, congratulate the player on being smarter than their character, but tell them that the answer escapes their character.

Does this mean that you need players to rolleverytime they use their brain? No. Only when there is a meaningful and significant chance of failure. Knowing the ingredients that go in an ancient elven recipe might require some rare knowledge, but if there is no significance in the game based upon whether the pc knows it? Leave it up to the players to decide if they know it. If a character has the sailor background, there are some things he will know about the sea without rolling that other pcs might need to roll to see if they know. It is all judgment calls....
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
On the topic of INT usefulness, considering that engagement with the combat pillar is common and frequent at many tables, trying to recall lore on monsters and NPCs to find out their abilities and weaknesses is very useful. Recalling lore is generally an Intelligence check, when the DM finds such a fictional action to have an uncertain outcome. And since DMs in my experience typically assign no action cost for such a fictional action, it's generally smart play for everyone to do this every time a fight kicks off. Of course, having a higher INT score becomes more valuable only when the DM assigns a cost for a failed check.
 

Phantarch

First Post
I'm glad intelligence got devalued from 3.5, to be honest. I think far too many characters had unrealistically high intelligence scores to maximize skill points, so suddenly adventurers were all geniuses. I'm going to sound like a jerk, but I find it more jarring when an average to low intelligence player attempts to play an 18 intelligence character than when a highly intelligent player attempts to play an 8 intelligence character.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
In my view, it's up to the player to play however he or she wants, allowing the ability scores to influence decisions for the character or not. I don't concern myself with such things when I DM, nor do I see any compelling reason to start. I adjudicate fictional actions taken. I don't sit in judgment of whether an idea the player articulates is something the character could come up with. If the player is playing to established characterization, I have Inspiration as a reward.
I reward going beyond what is required in all aspects of the game. Proper role-play is expected. That's the reason we make characters that are more than just lumps of stats to begin with. Even Muscle John over there with an 18 Str, an 18 Con and an 8 in every other stat has personality and wants and needs and loves and hates. I expect his player to play his character accordingly. If the player has Muscle John do something incredible that goes above and beyond the call of normal every-day role-playing expectations, that's what earns rewards. XP rewards you enough for doing what you need to do in order to win. Inspiration, Boons and other goodies are rewards for going beyond that.

So, in your game, the smart play for me as a player is to simply act on good plans and tactics I've thought up rather than voice them beforehand so as to avoid you asking for a roll to see if the character could come up with such good plans or tactics in the first place, based upon your assessment of my character's Intelligence score. I could live with that (because I'd rather do stuff than talk about doing stuff), but you should be aware that this is what you're encouraging.
Sure it is, and I wouldn't find it unreasonable for Muscle John to think that acting on his own might be better than potentially failing to properly communicate his plan to the party; I see that as good role-play. Muscle John doesn't understand strategy and tactics, so when everyone starts strategizing, he gets antsy and starts looking for something to punch. That's great IMO. But there is room for metagaming at my table. Bill and Bob are welcome to talk, as players, even if Bob's character is a moron, Bill's isn't, so Bill presents Bob's plan. That's fine and dandy with me. I give players room to do that. They're welcome to take a "time out" to discuss strategy outside of their characters. It is a group game. Players and characters should be working together to achieve their individual and mutual goals.

But Muscle John might also find out that acting on his own presents extreme danger to both himself and his friends. So attempting to communicate a plan or taking a "time out" to strategize is worth the added effort, not to mention can also result in some exemplary role-play while Muscle John attempts to babble his way through strategy but his friends, being the understanding sort, make their own checks into figuring out what he's trying to tell them and we experience some great character development and have moment the table will remember!

What Intelligence score does a character need to have to come up with a good battle plan?
It really depends on what the player wants to do. Is his plan "Lets attack them while they sleep!" I think that's a plan just about anyone could think up. Is his plan, lets send two men over to that ledge where they'll do this and that and send another guy over there where they'll do some other things, etc..." heck, even the 18 Int Wizard might have to make a check if the plan is complicated enough, shoot it might even be too complex for the rest of the party to properly execute!

A "good" battle plan, something middle-of-the-road-ish? I'd say an 8 at a minimum. I don't think that's unreasonable.
 

famousringo

First Post
Don't want to play a slack-jawed gomer? Then don't use your INT as a dump stat. Simple as that. Keep in mind, that an average rating isn't an idiot, so this isn't even an issue for people who use array. For random gen or point by, you could get below an 8, but not with array.

Pardon my hyperbole, but the point was that players always have to pick a weakest stat, and the structure of the rules are pushing players to make INT that stat (also STR, probably both). You can point the finger at the player for being a metagaming min-maxer, but if the game was designed better, the min-max choice wouldn't be so obvious.

The fact is, INT is the least important stat in the combat tree (even Eldritch Knights can dump it), barely relevant in the social tree, and shares the spotlight with many other stats in exploration. 5th ed might have better design than any previous edition of DnD, but I don't think it's wrong to point out where it could have done better.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
Pardon my hyperbole, but the point was that players always have to pick a weakest stat, and the structure of the rules are pushing players to make INT that stat (also STR, probably both). You can point the finger at the player for being a metagaming min-maxer, but if the game was designed better, the min-max choice wouldn't be so obvious.

The fact is, INT is the least important stat in the combat tree (even Eldritch Knights can dump it), barely relevant in the social tree, and shares the spotlight with many other stats in exploration. 5th ed might have better design than any previous edition of DnD, but I don't think it's wrong to point out where it could have done better.

To get back to the OP, and respond to this post at the same time (if you're the OP, two birds yay!) I'm not experiencing this "issue" in the game. Intelligence checks come up about as often as any other sort of checks, save for dex checks I suppose. I'd hardly call it the "weakest stat in the game" or the "least important". But maybe that's because I play with a couple people who like making intelligent characters?
 

rollingForInit

First Post
To get back to the OP, and respond to this post at the same time (if you're the OP, two birds yay!) I'm not experiencing this "issue" in the game. Intelligence checks come up about as often as any other sort of checks, save for dex checks I suppose. I'd hardly call it the "weakest stat in the game" or the "least important". But maybe that's because I play with a couple people who like making intelligent characters?

I think it's more that Intelligence requires more from the DM than other stats. Constitution is automatically important because it sets the HP. Dex is automatically important because it affects Initiative, AC and several frequently used skills. Wisdom is important mostly because Perception checks come very naturally to most players and DM's, both in exploration and combat, and Insight comes equally naturally in social situations. If there's any social aspects of the game (and most have some level of it), Charisma comes very naturally. Those ability scores are just very, very difficult to avoid having in your game if you do both combat and social encounters.

Intelligence checks can much more easily be skipped, and the DM has to set all the DC levels for every monster they encounter to know what a character will remember from any given knowledge check. Investigation is more broadly applicable, but it suffers from sharing territory with Perception.

It's not so much that Intelligence is always a bad stat or that it cannot be important, even critical. It's just that it's not as tightly tied to any mechanics or situations as other stats are, so it's the easiest stat to overlook. Even Strength, which is a dump stat for many casters, can be difficult to avoid during exploration, since anything Athletic is based on it, as well as carrying capacity. And if the Wizard wants to beat someone with a quarterstaff, well ...
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
I think it's more that Intelligence requires more from the DM than other stats. Constitution is automatically important because it sets the HP. Dex is automatically important because it affects Initiative, AC and several frequently used skills. Wisdom is important mostly because Perception checks come very naturally to most players and DM's, both in exploration and combat, and Insight comes equally naturally in social situations. If there's any social aspects of the game (and most have some level of it), Charisma comes very naturally. Those ability scores are just very, very difficult to avoid having in your game if you do both combat and social encounters.

Intelligence checks can much more easily be skipped, and the DM has to set all the DC levels for every monster they encounter to know what a character will remember from any given knowledge check. Investigation is more broadly applicable, but it suffers from sharing territory with Perception.

It's not so much that Intelligence is always a bad stat or that it cannot be important, even critical. It's just that it's not as tightly tied to any mechanics or situations as other stats are, so it's the easiest stat to overlook. Even Strength, which is a dump stat for many casters, can be difficult to avoid during exploration, since anything Athletic is based on it, as well as carrying capacity. And if the Wizard wants to beat someone with a quarterstaff, well ...

I think there's some subtle, or perhaps some quite overt irony in the fact that Intelligence requires the most thinking. I find that fitting.
 


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