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6th Level Character Challenge

Elder-Basilisk

First Post
Ysgarran said:
One of those feats should be 'Large and In Charge' from
the 'Sword and First' supplement.
Rated one of the best feats possible in Smetzger's Polls (TM).
Nothing keeps BBFs away as well as Large and In Charge.

It rather depends. Large and In Charge is an excellent feat but I thought Iron Will and Weapon Specialization would be better choices for starting out. (Iron Will helps to prevent falling to a color spray, sound burst, or some other will save effect and weapon specialization is just a good feat--why take four levels of fighter if you don't take it?) Since he'll be with the party for a while, I'd have him take Large and In Charge with his next feat when he hits fighter 4/Barbarian 2.

Originally posted by two
I have to disagree with all the fighter or wizard-based posts.

There is just too much room for "down in one."

At sixth level, a fighter-based BBEG's will save is, well, majorley suckey.

That's part of the nature of D&D. Sometimes the dice work for the DM and sometimes they work against him. Even a cleric can fail a save or die spell in round 1. (I was running an RPGA adventure with an evil cleric BBEG two months ago and sure enough, he failed his save vs. Hold Person in round 1. All he needed to do was roll a 5.... Similarly, I was playing an RPGA adventure a month ago when a 10th level (or so) cleric--a member of the lesser Boneheart--failed her save against glitterdust). So choosing cleric isn't a get out of save or die land option. It is, however, the reason I chose half-ogre for Ugluk. As a Giant rather than a Humanoid, he's immune to Hold Person, Charm Person, etc. As a 5th level character, he's immune to Sleep. That eliminates the most common offenders in the "down in one" department. Color Spray and Sound Burst are annoying but one round of stunning won't necessarily destroy the challenge (I did give him a locking gauntlet though so that he won't drop his weapon if he's stunned). Two levels of Barbarian or Blindfight would help to reduce the effectiveness of Glitterdust but I wanted Weapon Specialization for Ugluk.

Also, note that the fighter and barbarian based BBEGs have a better chance against the "So does a 27 confirm my raging scythe crit?" version of the "down in one" risk.

All told, I think that fighter, rogue, and wizard BBEGs are viable possibilities; although cleric might be a slightly safer route, it still doesn't eliminate "down in one round" effects.
 

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two

First Post
true --

Good points.

But a cleric with the luck domain WILL entirely eliminate the dreaded "I rolled a 3 for the hold person," something that just can't be matched by any other core class.

Maybe you never need to use the ability. Maybe it makes the battle last another 5 rounds. Point is, it's SAFE. You can be sure that, at the very very worst, you have to roll badly TWICE consecutively to be totally screwed. Just won't happen that often.

Giant is a good call, good resitances. But still. I dunno. A dwarf or gnome cleric with only two good stats (wisdom and con, both 18 by level 6 or higher with basic magic buffs) might have as many or more hit points than the barbarian, who needs strength, dex, con. Plus the cleric has Endurance, etc. A level 6 Dwarf cleric with 17 base con, +1 at level 4, +2 for endurance = 20 con, solid. Wisdom of 16 at level 6 is fine, get a +2 item for 18. Dex 12, everything else 10 or below... it works. Average hit points are well over 50. Full plate +1, shield +1, etc. Heck, give the cleric a tower shield even; won't hinder spell casting/summoning, etc.


Yeah, i know it's the nature of D&D to have it all end suddenly with one roll. I just think it makes for a bad and boring game, so I strive to avoid such things -- within the rules, no dice fudging either.
 

Andion Isurand

First Post
here are some random thoughts?

In terms of RolePlaying nastiness...
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

How about a Duregar Cleric with the Daylight Adaptation feat?

( to later become a Cleric/Dwarven Defender later on )

***********************************

A derranged, Gnoll Barbarian/Druid of Malar with Gollum's voice?

************************************

Teiflings?
Oozemaster PrC?
 
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Ave Rage

First Post
Re: Fighter or Wizard BBEG's pretty much blow

two said:
I have to disagree with all the fighter or wizard-based posts.

There is just too much room for "down in one."

At sixth level, a fighter-based BBEG's will save is, well, majorley suckey.

A 6th level wizard has other major weaknesses. Sure, he can get off a round of spell casting; after that what if he's hit by a fort save spell, or even a lowely grease spell (reflex save), or readied actions to disrupt spell casting? Unless you give him cover, lots of grunts, etc. the wizard is only slightly scary. 1 round, yeah. Scary. 2 rounds? Nah. If you can get to him, just grapple. At these lower levels, he won't be flying yet. Probably.



You sir, play a horrible wizard ;)

If he turned on the party, it wouldn't be when he's standing right besides them! ha! He'd attack them when they 1. least expected it 2. couldn't get to him 3. when he had everything he needed to take them down (striking deals with local baddies, informing the rival church that so-and-so cleric is walking around, etc etc)

So what if he only has 20 hp? The fighter shouldn't even get near him! You can do a lot of damage with a simple invisability spell (buffing the half-orc barbarian who just popped out of the trees or hasting the 3 rogues that just stabbed the party cleric in the back :D )

Plus, the wizard is going to be traveling 'with' the party, meaning he'll probably get a portion of the loot/exp. so he'll have even more access to spells when he finally does get around to fighting them.

Clerics hide in thier armor. Wizards don't need it cause those that get too close find themselves in another dimension ;) Fly is also a lv.3 spell so yes, he will be flying.


(Elder-Basilisk made a good point too but I wrote this a while before he posted and forgot to hit 'submit ;)
 

two

First Post
no, do all the obvious stuff

Of course you do all the obvious wizardly stuff, fly if you want, invisible if you want, etc. etc. If you can get the following situation:

"1. least expected it 2. couldn't get to him 3. when he had everything he needed to take them down (striking deals with local baddies, informing the rival church that so-and-so cleric is walking around, etc etc)"


But if the wizard can pick his time to attack, optimally, and insure the party can't retaliate, sure, wow, he will be effective. If he hires cronies to help him, yeah, great, etc. So will ANY NPC you pick; this has nothing to do with the NPC, it has to do with the DM allowing an ambush of X% assured mortality. Fine, yippie.

Need I mention that a cleric, or rogue, or Z under similar circumstance will shine brightly as well?

My point was, in a more balanced scenario (not a straight stand up fight but also not "neeeh neeeh you can't possibly hurt me") the cleric, who schemes and plots just as hard as the wizard, will probably be more effective and last longer. The idea is for the NPC to lose -- but lose after mucho blood, not a total party kill. right? Right.


Or are you saying the party will NEVER be able to target the wizard with a fort-save spell? Or NEVER be able to ready an arrow against a spell being cast? Never do HP damage? i.e. never attack the Wizard's big weaknesses at all? If not, sure. Scary wizard.
 

Gaiden

Explorer
Two, I am going to definitely have to disagree with you.

There is a reason why the Monk death blow character made it to the smack list:

Monk 2, Fighter 2, Psychic Warrior 2.

Str 16, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 16, Chr 8

Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Attack, Dodge (using the option for switching feats in OA), Mobility, Spring Attack, Ability Focus (FtLB), Combat Reflexes, Expert Tactician, Death Blow, Inertial Armor, Freeze the Lifeblood. If you don't allow the switching feats option in OA lose Ability focus.

Skills: max out tumble

Powers: (IDHMBWM - the one that you can activate as a free action that grants you +10 movement)

Equipment: Ki Straps (if you do not allow them to also work for FrLB, engineer them to only work for that ability), Potion of Expiditious Retreat, Potion of Greater Magic Fang (15th level caster), Potion of Bull's Strength, Potion of Cat's Grace, Potion of Owl's Wisdom, Masterwork Polearm of Choice, Full Plate w/gauntlets, Ring of Jumping.

Numbers: After Potion of Strength and Potion of Greater Magic Fang, your unarmed attack bonus (averaged) will be +13 (+4 (BAB), +4 (Str), +5 (Greater Magic Fang)). Your unarmed damage will be 1d6+9 (1d6 (base), +4 (Str), +5 (GMF)). Your unarmored AC will be 22 (10 (base), +4 (wis), +4 (Inertial Armor), +3 (Dex), +1 Dodge). Your Saves are Fortitude +7, Reflex +6, Will +7. Your FtLB DC is 24 with ability focus - a tough save for even the fighter or cleric (probably less so for the paladin). Your coup de grace save vs death is 35! No, I don't think even the fighters will make that one. Your unarmored speed can be 40' with the P.W. power. Moreover, if you want, just pick up potions of hiding and moving silently if you want to be the sneaky type doing what I suggested in my first post. However, you probably won't have to as your main danger - the spell casters can be taken out in the first round.

Tactics: Parade around as the warrior in heavy armor weilding the two handed weapon. You have CR, D, M, and SA to aid in this persona. Your AC will still be pretty good (20), and you have a decent attack bonus (+8 w/masterwork weapon) and can deal decent damage 1d10+4. The best thing is that you threaten a large area and have combat reflexes. Moreover, parading around this way, will not rouse the least bit of suspicion from even the more experienced players as you demonstrate a good number of feats in combat, have good tactics, and a good AC. If I were playing this I would offer a few cues, like perhaps being ungauntled one day and doing a punch when someone gets inside the polearm's threat range (rather than stepping back). Or maybe demonstrating the death blow when a cleric casts hold person or something similar - makes it more fun for the other players when they had a chance to learn about the BBEG ahead of time. Most of the potions all have hour magnitude durations so can be drank well ahead of time before the actual encounter against the PC's. I presume that whichever BBEG smack you choose will not attack the PC's at their most weakest (like when they are unarmored in bed or some such - as that would really suck for the PC's). Rather it will be at some climactic unexpected moment.

Moreover, perhaps you could have the guy directing this assassin like character somehow construct an encounter with the PC's against a rust monster - right before the climactic moment or perhaps at the moment. That way, your death blow monk just had his armor removed for him very quickly (rather than having to take it off).

You add in the rest.

Keep in mind that you still have several psionic abilities that I did not even mention, you can flurry (to great effect while buffed - and still get the deathblow attack), you have stunning attacks (take the feat rather than the monk ability - that way it works for character level rather than class level - granted you can use it less often), you don't have to drop the reach weapon when you attack unarmed, just release the two handed grip and then regrip during your turn if that would be most optimal (that way you can maximize CR). If it turns out that things are going bad for you, jump the heck out of dodge. With your +40 or so jump bonus you should be able to get to some pretty unreachable places relative to your party members. If you have RoF available pick up that hanglider device so that you can jump high then coast a ways or jump off a cliff or even jump up and then do a charge attack downwards gaining not only the +2 but additional +1 to attack from higher ground (and I think you may be able to include falling damage against your opponent).

A few other things of note - the GMF potion is made using create your own magic item, if you disallow this, instead get a +1 three section staff or polearm. This will significantly cut down on your ability to hit, but hey, thems the breaks - maybe you can secure a maximized version of some of the above potioins.
 

Ave Rage

First Post
Re: no, do all the obvious stuff

two said:


Need I mention that a cleric, or rogue, or Z under similar circumstance will shine brightly as well?

My point was, in a more balanced scenario (not a straight stand up fight but also not "neeeh neeeh you can't possibly hurt me") the cleric, who schemes and plots just as hard as the wizard, will probably be more effective and last longer. The idea is for the NPC to lose -- but lose after mucho blood, not a total party kill. right? Right.


Yes, every class (except bard ;) ) has an equal chance to cause havoc. The cleric won't last any longer than the Wizard though just because he has double the hp and 8 more ac though. A dwarf cleric will have great saves (especially with that 'second chance' ability) but that can be worked around (Mind Fog = -10 to all will/wis saves :/ ) as can anything be worked around.

The main thing I see a dwarven cleric doing that a Wizard wouldn't is busting out a 'heal' spell bringing his massive hp back to full.

In my campaign, there are two characters that actually fit this argument. A dwarven cleric of Fun (home brew god, Kool-aid is the diety :D ) and a sunelf wizard. While the dwarf is extremely tough, has great stats(20 con too), and is a good rollplayer, he knows that to go up against the wizard would be a risky task. The chance to fail his save vs. hold person is just too great.

But if you want staying power, I guess a cleric would pull ahead if just for the healing ability. I just always see the Wizard as the big bad guy and if there's an evil divine caster, a Paladin is much more bloody.
 

two

First Post
Dude

I know nothing of psionics.

that sounds like a mucho mean monk/psi-warrior.

I agree that guy would be durn effective! Saves are a little on the weak side (7/6/7) but it sounds there will be enough chaos going on to make spellcasting very tough.

Nice build.
 

Arcturus_Rugend

First Post
Thanks to everyone that contributed to this thread. I have at least 10 different ideas for NPCs that I want to create as a direct result of some of these builds or as offshoots of the great ideas.

My players will thank you for it, too, once they've recovered. :D
 

Norfleet

First Post
I would be wary of using any strange variant monster races, as your players aren't liable to trust some random monster very much. If your party is expected to trust the subject, and the subject is to then backstab the party, the all-around top backstabber is, of course, rogue-related classes. The halfling rogue/assassin Jens suggested is a good once. Human is another variation on that to consider, but definitely the rogue/assassin.

But if you really want to be evil, levels are mostly irrelevant. Just have this guy CDG everyone in their sleep. They'll never know what hit them.
 

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