A 30th-level Party needs 50th-level Monsters...

[Upper_Krust]

Hello Jack!

These speculations are solely based on 3.5 CR rules, and thus invalid.

I disagree. The formula I use does not depend on the system, it merely depends on the same (approx.) incremental jump being used for each level. Now I will concede that we don't know if 4E uses the same jump in power each level, but I think its highly likely that it does.

There is no way to know how things work out in 4e. Yes, we know that 5 lvl 10 should have a good fight against 5 lvl 10 monsters. But that doesnt mean that difficulty scales nowhere the same way as in 3.5. Maybe all you need is a lvl 16 mob in order to challenge them.

If all you need was a Level 16 mob then that would validate what I am suggesting (A 67% increase for indiduals against a five member party to maintain the same degree of challenge).

Also, one more thing, do you really need a cr33 to challenge a group of 5 lvl 20 characters?

No, but you do need a Level 33 monster to challenge a group of five 20th-level characters to the same extent that five Level 20 monsters would challenge them.

However, CR and Level mean two different things, leading to lots of confusion in 3/3.5.

e.g. A 20th-level NPC is not as much of a threat as a Balor.

In 4th Edition they have scrapped Challenge Rating and simply use Level. In addition, instead of setting up a Challenge Rating to give PCs a moderate encounter using 25% of their resources, instead encounters are being designed to give meaningful challenges at that level...all you do is add a number of monsters (of that level) equal to the number of PCs.

So if the Balor is Level 20 in 4E (?), five of them would be a good match for five 20th-level PCs.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

How so?

Well if they establish that five creatures of Level x = 5 PCs of Level x, why would they then break that formula just for dragons?

I know this sort of silliness was applied to 3/3.5, but it shouldn't have been.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Sammael!

Depends on the group, and depends on the critter. My players aren't big min/maxers, and they seldom use a lot of tactics in their encounters, but their level 20 characters are able to take down CR 26 creatures with ease on a regular basis.

How many players in your group?

 

[Sammael]

Howdy Sammael!

How many players in your group?

Hi UK, I have 6 players who play the following roles: cleric/party leader, wizard (mostly enchanter/illusionist, but he also has some very handy transmutations and conjurations), sword-and-board tank with limited healing abilities, rogue/assassin type with an impossibly high Sneak skill, bard/seeker of the song with Words of Creation, another sword-and-board fighter with lower AC and HP than the primary tank, but who deals better damage.

EDIT: I just wanted to add that the party is at their best when fully buffed by the bard (who can give the party fighters something like +10 to attack, IIRC), and supported by the cleric's mass spell resistance, mass heals, and such.

 

[Flynn]

At the moment, you should be able to approximate the new "monster level approach" by adding 4 to the v3.5 creature's CR, or thereabouts, to get monster level, right? This is based on the assumption that the CR is equal to four PCs of the same level, so one PC of the same level should be able to handle the same monster when their own character level equals CR+4. Since "monster level" indicates one monster should match one PC, there we go.

Of course, this is an over-simplification, and probably breaks down pretty quickly. However, it is a thought based on the current approach to rating monters based on their ability to create a challenge for the party.

Just Speculating,
Flynn

 

[Baby Samurai]

Well if they establish that five creatures of Level x = 5 PCs of Level x, why would they then break that formula just for dragons?

Because dragons are special!

Seriously, no one knows that much about how the challenge system/encounter balancing etc will break down in 4th edition..

Plus, the 1- 20 power scale has changed into a 1 - 30 power scale, with encounters staying viable through all levels.

I wasn't aware that the new standard party number is 5 – where did you find that?

 

[Umbran]

So the first question is: Are there any monsters in the Monster Manual that would be individual encounters for a 30th-level PC Party?

The second question is: What level would they be?

Well, remember that there may be some significant difference between what 3.xe and 4e calls "30th level". It should be rather hard for us to guess what critters in the current MM will be challenges for 4e characters of a specific level.

There are single critters in the current MM that are suitable challenges for characters at the top of the range the core books handle- 20th level. If 4e's 30th is like 3e's 20th, we might take a stab at a guess - the big old dragons, the big demons, and such (the things we'd throw at a group of 20th level PCs today) should be the critters that challenge that same bunch of PCs in the future.

What level will they call those critters? That kind of depends on how the power curve goes, and how they represent the math. In the end, the scale is merely arbitrary numbers that work well as a mnemonic, and isn't meaningful in and of itself.

 

[Jack99]

Hello Jack!
[axed]

Hey UK. Just reread your post, and it makes more sense now. I think I got confused as to when you were speaking in 3.5 terms and when in 4e terms.

Either way, I dont think we will see lvl 50 monsters in the MM, and I definitely dont think that a lvl 50 monster will be needed to give a lvl 30 group a good combat.

Lacking any more info, I will have to admit that I can offer no better guess.

 

[Jack99]

I wasn't aware that the new standard party number is 5 – where did you find that?

Its been mentioned several places. I dont have a link, but it should be solid info.

 

[Thanee]

If they make it right, 20th-level will be 20th-level regardless whether it's a PC, an NPC, or a monster.

Now, if there is still a power doubling every two levels, as it is now (more or less), then the obvious answer to your question is (under that assumption):

One 35th-level monster.


Now, of course, that's not an 'appropriate challenge' as defined in 3E, but rather an even fight, where both sides have about the same chance to win.

Bye
Thanee