A bit tired of people knocking videogames...

[racoffin]

From what I recall from many years ago during the beginnings of 4E, people were equating it with Diablo or World of Warcraft. That was met with a huge uproar and much anger, with many of a "You don't understand what you are saying and how can anyone call it like that!"

I cannot be sure, but I'd wager a pretty penny that the term videogamey is being used in place of games of that sort, which is why you'll find many folks that use the term or can understand what is being talked about nodding and understanding the shortcut being used.

Whether those who mislike the term agree or disagree with the shorthand or whether the system acts like one of those sorts of games is beside the point. It has become a shorthand that more than a few people understand and have used, much like a lot of the jargon, slang and shorthand that crops up on message boards and the rest of the net.

After 35+ pages of this thread, I'd be amazed if people don't have a slight idea of what the term 'videogamey' means. The conversation has left that and moved on to trying to, for lack of a better word, force people to elaborate, expand, or expound upon what they mean. While it would be nice, it isn't something that many feel comfortable doing, or even believe that they have to. Sometimes, if you don't understand, it is on you. Sometimes, if the other person doesn't want to explain you have to shrug and move on.

Me, I'm flabbergasted that after 35+ pages we're still trying to create some definition. We're all big kids here, we know the term doesn't reference Pong or MarioKart or some obscure video game or system or style. Check the archives for all the fighting from years ago and it's pretty clear what it means, and people on the thread have elaborated a great deal.

In the end, this is less about the term and more about the idea of controlling the conversation by controlling the language in my opinion. And I've found that people, especially on Internet message boards, are very reluctant to budge in that regard.

 

[Glade Riven]

If you don't understand what I'm saying by my use of a term, don't infer an insult, ask me to clarify.

Didn't we go over this? Several times?

On another note, there's been at least 5 different variations in this thread on what "videogamey" means, by people who use it as a (positive or negative) descriptor.

 

[Oryan77]

On another note, there's been at least 5 different variations in this thread on what "videogamey" means, by people who use it as a (positive or negative) descriptor.

Oh perfect! So you're saying that you are beginning to know what the term means then! Finally.

 

[Glade Riven]

Oh perfect! So you're saying that you are beginning to know what the term means then! Finally.

I know what several definitions of the term means. This thread fullfilled it's role at least 10 pages back. Those definitions are not necessarally the same, though, for each person.

For instance, pro-4e often associate the definition of the term as an excuse not to like 4e, rather than for a specific mechanic. The term has been used this way by some people. Anti-4e typically uses it to refer to a specific game mechanic that breaks suspension of disbelief for them. That mechanic is not neccessarally the same for each person.

Because of the gulf between the definitions, the term is vague enough to be useless to the discussion without applying further context.

 

[jmucchiello]

Most people are not logical and most people go by how things look and sound to them.

Wait, wait, you are telling me, the poster who as been saying since the beginning that people posting on forums are posting emotionally first, that people are not logical? Have you read anything I posted? Let me summarize:

Generally, someone posting in a forum takes ZERO care to ensure they are being precise and makes ZERO attempt to ensure their arguments are logical to a debate club level. In fact, most people don't do any fact checking. They don't do any research. They don't do anything but post the first notion to wander across their brain, and this thought is probably emotionally charged if it is something they are passionate about.

Because of the above, YOU can't stop them a priori from using a vague, imprecise term (such as videogamey) when giving their first impression of 4e.
-- end summary

Second, how does everything you said to me, not apply to you? You want people not to call 4e videogamey. And somehow these illogical people are supposed to use logic to understand that some people find it insulting? And they are supposed to know this before they post somehow?

When people want to be right above all else...

The simple solution is not to talk to these people. Once they reveal how illogically they view the world (I must be right), you should be the better person and walk away from the fight you can't win.

And that's why you guys often come across as smug and arrogant and elitist intellectuals.

Actually I'm espousing wisdom (More than I may possess), not intelligence. Intelligence says I can find the right words that will win this argument. Wisdom tells you that you can't change a closed mind. The only arrogance I might display is my continued attempt to open minds.

Because you constantly insist on correcting people to what you think is the proper way to express oneself.

Again, you are saying "don't express you hate for 4e by saying videogamey". I'm saying, "you can't stop someone from saying something". Who again is telling others the proper way to express oneself?

EDIT: [MENTION=18701]Oryan77[/MENTION]: Ooops, I hadn't noticed.

 

[Oryan77]

the term is vague enough to be useless to the discussion without applying further context.

It's no less vague than if you said "I don't like 4e" or "I don't like that rule". But then, this was probably mentioned within the first 10 pages also.

 

[jmucchiello]

Is it wrong to believe video games are mindless?

Yes, it is.

I suppose I could go to the trouble of looking up the literature on the use of video games in education, seeing how much of it is online and easily accessible. But I'm lazy, so I'm not going to. It's sufficient to say that anyone who considers video games mindless is ignorant of certain topics in recent education theory.

Bull. Just because educators say something doesn't make it fact. If education were a science, no kid would ever fail out of school. It is like saying there is a right answer to religion or politics. No, having a BELIEF does not require a researched position. All it requires is a BELIEF. I can't take this discussion to its logical conclusion without violating board rules about forbidden topics. Funny though as those forbidden topics are forbidden because people react to them emotionally. Similarly, there have be moratoriums on edition wars for the same reason.

 

[The Shaman]

It's sufficient to say that anyone who considers video games mindless is ignorant of certain topics in recent education theory.

So now video roleplaying games are the functional equivalent of video educational software?

What's next? A dune buggy is equivalent to a Bradley because they both are found in the desert?

 

[JamesonCourage]

In the last six pages, has the thread at all progressed from this:

It looks like this thread is mostly devolving into a loop that looks something like this, as of this point:

1) "Video-gamey" isn't a precise term.
2) But it isn't necessarily insulting.
3) But it's not specific enough to be useful.
4) But it is useful in a general sense.
5) Not specifically, it's not.
6) You can get specifics by asking.
7) Why not just skip that and tell us specifics originally?
8) Because it's not how dialogue works.
9) It should be.
10) It's not.
11) Well, it should be.
12) Well, it's not.
13) Well...

AND

1) Your insults against 4e aren't valid.
2) In our opinion, it is valid.
3) Not logically.
4) We're talking about feelings.
5) But we can shred your reasons if you state them.
6) I still feel this way.
7) It's not logical, though.
8) That's not how things work.
9) It should be.
10) Well, it's not.
11) Well, it should be.
12) Well, it's not.
13) Well...

I'd suggest we call it a day, folks. It's just slowly ramping up in hostility again, and after the two very lenient warnings we've had already, I don't know if it's wise to continue these circles. Just my two cents, though

 

[The Shaman]

In the end, this is less about the term and more about the idea of controlling the conversation by controlling the language in my opinion.

Worth repeating.

And could someone please whack racoffin with an XP for me?