A Change to Power Attack

[airwalkrr]

As anyone who knows me probably already realizes, I am no big fan of Power Attack. In fact, I think it is one of the best ideas in the game albiet with a horrible implementation. I've made several attempts to remedy this over the years, but none ever struck me as solving each of the problems.

1) Power Attack is occassionally useful when using a one-handed weapon, but incredible when using a two-handed weapon.
2) Numerous abilities in newer supplements have ways to augment Power Attack, making it even better (and thus more problematic). E.g. Shock Trooper, Exotic Weapon Master, and Leap Attack to name a few.
3) Power Attack works the same no matter the size of the creature using it. That makes no sense at all. A Colossal creature should get a greater benefit for throwing caution to the wind since there is far more momentum behind his swing.
4) Power Attack damage is multiplied on a critical hit. For normal weapons with one-handed weapon-wielders this is usually fairly reasonable. With two-handed weapon wielders with high critical multipliers (scythe, I'm looking in your direction), the damage becomes obscene. A scythe is essentially a vorpal weapon at higher levels; when I get a critical hit with a scythe, I get +8 damage for each -1 to my attack roll. That's +80 damage at 10th level! One-hit kills can be fun, but they can also be anti-climactic. "Hmm, the barbarian just critted the BBEG with a scythe on the first round. That wasn't a very scary BBEG."
5) While most feats grant the same benefit regardless of character level, Power Attack increases in potential benefit with each level. You can get +1 damage at 1st level but +10 at 10th level.
6) Some players (especially those who aren't good at math) take forever deciding how many points to Power Attack for. It would be nice if the mechanic was simpler and didn't involve as much math.

Well, I think I have come up with a way to solve all of these problems with a simple tip from the Powerful Charge feat. You will notice a lot of similarities between this version of Power Attack and Powerful Charge. As an optional rule, the Improved Power Attack feat is also available.

1) Power Attack is now variable, and thus potentially more useful or less useful depending on the roll. The relative benefit is lessened for using a two-handed weapon, but still significant.
2) Abilities that augment Power Attack now simply treat you as one size category larger when using the feat. Still a benefit, but not usually as much of an increase in raw damage unless you are a very big creature.
3) Bigger creatures get a bigger benefit from the feat, but not necessarily an obscene one since they can only use it with one set of weapons.
4) Because the damage bonus is now bonus dice, it is no longer multiplied on a critical hit.
5) Power Attack now gives the same benefit regardless of character level, which depreciates in value as the character increases in level. As a low-level feat of a feat chain, this is exactly how it should work.
6) Power Attack is now a static penalty and a variable bonus that is probably easier to add since it is a die and you don't have to recalculate your modifier.

So take a look at the feats below and tell me what you think.

POWER ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Str 13, Medium or larger, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract 4 from all melee attack rolls and add an extra 1d8 points of damage (if it is of Medium size). For Large creatures, the extra damage is 2d6 points; for Huge, 3d6; for Gargantuan, 4d6; and for Colossal, 6d6. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, you are treated as one size category larger (a Colossal creature deals 8d6 points of damage with a two-handed weapon). You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)
You are limited to one attack routine when using this feat. You may still fight with two weapons, but a creature with natural weapons may only use one type of natural weapon (such as claws, wings, or bite) when it uses this feat.
A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

IMPROVED POWER ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Str 15, Medium or larger, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: When using the Power Attack feat, you may instead choose to subtract 8 from all melee attack rolls and treat yourself as one size category larger for the purposes of calculating extra damage from Power Attack (a Colossal creature deals 8d6 points of damage).
Special: This benefit stacks with that granted by the benefit for attacking with a two-handed weapon or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands (a Colossal creature deals 12d6 points of damage).
A fighter may select Improved Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

 

[BRP2]

I think factoring size is kind of lame. A giant's high STR score represents his "momentum".

In my opinion, it it also kind of high level(4) for what it should be.

I'm not thinking of balance here, just a concept, but I would have it like the following (through I kind of prefer normal Power Attack, if you just put a limit on it, like it isn't effected by crits of certain weapons):

Power Attack

Prerequisite: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: Players may sacrifice a -3 penalty on their attack roll and add a die of damage to their damage roll. If the weapon is 1-handed, add 1d6. If the weapon is 2-handed, add 1d6 and multiply by 1.5. A player can do this as many times in one damage roll equal to their STR modifier + 1 or their BAB, whatever is lower.

Probably not balanced at all, but with a little thought it could be.

 

[Graf]

I -hate- optional rules and people mucking around.
I've had power attacking barbarians in groups as a DM and it wasn't so terrible.

But we've recently had a Two-handed Barbarian in a mid-level game (8th level) who's consistently critting for 50~80 points.
I'm not the DM but if I were I'd be irriated.

And this is a relatively interesting and simple way to solve the problem. Plus it feeds the desire to roll lots of dice.

 

[Darklone]

I -hate- optional rules and people mucking around.
I've had power attacking barbarians in groups as a DM and it wasn't so terrible.

So far I was wondering why you read threads in the Houserules section

But we've recently had a Two-handed Barbarian in a mid-level game (8th level) who's consistently critting for 50~80 points.
I'm not the DM but if I were I'd be irriated.

Me too.

And this is a relatively interesting and simple way to solve the problem. Plus it feeds the desire to roll lots of dice.

Yeah, love dice.

BRP2: I like your feat. Looks similar to Powerful Charge and other nice thingies without making PA what it is now: The standard str fighter ability to waste anything.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think both ideas are quite ok, and pretty simple to use (I hate unnecessary complications).

I agree that the 2-handed power attack is annoying, and both these variants at least make it toned down a bit and quicker to use than the 3.5 core version.

I don't agree that a feat must be of constant value and cannot scale with levels. Instead, I think that it's best for feats to keep approximately the same usefulness over the levels (reasonably) and while for some feats this means they should be a flat bonus, for others it may not. But it's not a big deal anyway even to have it fixed.

Also, I've rarely had the problems of players taking too much time choosing the degree of PA. In our case it's always "full PA", "no PA", or "something in between" and the latter is typically chosen at random and often is gradually increased until the player thinks he's missing too many hits.

My favourite version of PA is still the first 3.0 anyway

 

[quetzyl]

I have found that simply capping PA in the same way as combat expertise, so no more than +/- 5, is a simple and effective way to restrict the power of the feat. I even allow an improved PA feat that allows unlimited modifiers, as I think that for 2 feats that is not unreasonable.

Cheers,
quetzyl

 

[airwalkrr]

I have found that simply capping PA in the same way as combat expertise, so no more than +/- 5, is a simple and effective way to restrict the power of the feat. I even allow an improved PA feat that allows unlimited modifiers, as I think that for 2 feats that is not unreasonable.

Cheers,
quetzyl

For me, this still does not address the issue that numerous abilities in the game are too powerful when combined with the way Power Attack works. For example, Leap Attack and Uncanny Blow from Exotic Weapon master have incredible synergy with Power Attack, synergy that is really just too good. Toss in Shock Trooper: Heedless Charge and you have a character who deals massive amounts of damage and still has an impressive attack bonus. The penalty to your AC from Heedless Charge does not matter if you can one-hit kill your opponent.

Wraithstrike is another item that is too good with the current version of Power Attack. It makes Eldritch Knights the king of damage-dealers.

The list goes on, but I have decided that simply adjusting the way Power Attack works makes all of these things tame enough to not be considered overpowered.

 

[Graf]

So far I was wondering why you read threads in the Houserules section

Because the RSS feeds aren't broken out by type?

The dice are also good because they help avoid mutliplication issues (i.e. someone multiplying twice, or incorrectly in their head).

 

[trav_laney]

4) Power Attack damage is multiplied on a critical hit. For normal weapons with one-handed weapon-wielders this is usually fairly reasonable. With two-handed weapon wielders with high critical multipliers (scythe, I'm looking in your direction), the damage becomes obscene.

It probably isn't the solution you are looking for, but we fixed it in our game by not allowing Power Attack bonuses to be multiplied on crit hits. In my games, the only damage that gets multiplied on a critical hit is the unmodified weapon itself. It seems to work pretty good.

 

[Li Shenron]

For example, Leap Attack and Uncanny Blow from Exotic Weapon master have incredible synergy with Power Attack, synergy that is really just too good. Toss in Shock Trooper: Heedless Charge and you have a character who deals massive amounts of damage and still has an impressive attack bonus. The penalty to your AC from Heedless Charge does not matter if you can one-hit kill your opponent.

Wraithstrike is another item that is too good with the current version of Power Attack. It makes Eldritch Knights the king of damage-dealers.

The list goes on, but I have decided that simply adjusting the way Power Attack works makes all of these things tame enough to not be considered overpowered.

I don't like 3.5 PA, but I wouldn't change one core thing just because some prestige classes or feats in optional supplement are too good in combination with that. I hope you're doing this chance first because you want to change PA itself!