A couple abilities in Martial Power seem WAY too good...

[Mal Malenkirk]

Edit: What is it about double weapons that makes tempest fighters so broken? I may have a wannabe tempest fighter coming into my campaign, so this would be good to know.

The doubleweapon pretty much negates all the sacrifices the tempest fighter otherwise has to make.

For the cost of a single feat, the Tempest fighter gets to use D8 or D10 while still gaining his +1 to hit, with the same AC as if he had a large shield and with bonus damage to boot if he chooses to wear chainmail... And he has only one weapon to keep up to spec.

Without it, the Tempest fighter must make choices. Want to use large weapon dice? lose the +1 to hit. Want to mitigate the lower AC with a parrying dagger? You get a +2 / D4 weapon. Want to go allout for a powerful dual strike? Use two short swords or handaxes and wear chain or hide but get lower AC.
The double weapon negates all that and crushes all other options.

 

[DonAdam]

I don't think people are talking about banning Martial Power completely. There's lots of good stuff, and balance doesn't need to be perfect.

The only things I see as particularly problematic are:

-BRV's getting temp hp when they get hit. Invigorating itself is fine, balance-wise. De facto DR, with 4e level damage, is not (it was ok in the xd6 days).

-Marked Scourge

-Tempest fighters getting striker damage. This could be fixed by getting rid of marked scourge, and maybe making any of the +Wis dmg paragon abilities (Pit Fighter, Son of Mercy) once a round. I still don't like Tempest Fighters, but then they wouldn't create problems.

-Double weapons might also be a problem.

Beastmasters at least have to give up Prime Shot (2WF ranger should have to as well).

 

[Elric]

I think Battlerager Vigor would be less game-breaking if it was limited to giving you temp HP once a (personal) round. Then the BRV fighter wouldn't be able to take on groups of foes nearly as easily.

I'd probably also remove the "temp HP" restriction on his bonus damage, since he's more likely to be caught without temp HP under this change, the low AC of chainmail becomes worse with less temp HP gaining, and it's simpler to do it that way.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

On the whole, I think Martial Power is alright. There's a lot of good, balanced powers in there. Take, for example, Shielded Sided (Fighter Utility 2). It gives a + 2 to AC and REF and negates any CA on you. This is a great power, and it's something I like a lot better than any of the Utility 2's in the PHB. However, it's also very balanced when you compare it to the Wizard's Shield power (Also Utility 2). The Wizard gets +4 to AC and REF, but you can still get CA on him. The two powers also match the fluff of the classes as well, as Shield is really great at blocking one shot from someone who got into the back lines, whereas Shielded Sides is really great for the Fighter that just marked 4 guys with Sweeping Blow.

There is, however, some things that need fixing. Marked Scourge is not broken in and of itself. It's +WIS to any target you already marked. Most of the time, this will be just one target. The only time it would be multiple targets was if you used a burst power, followed by another burst power. That's two Encounters in a row there, so I don't think that's "overpowered" to allow it to apply to multiple enemies. The only problem with the power is that it stacks with the Pit Fighter PP, which actually has a more powerful version of the ability because it doesn't require a mark. If they perhaps errata'd both of these so that it was a typed power bonus, it would prevent abuse. Then, they would only really be devastating in the hands of someone that specifically built for them from level 1. With an 18/16 STR/WIS you could eventually get a +7 by 28th level, but I hardly think that's gamebreaking because it would mean dumping points into WIS at every level as well as probably havin to point buy two 16's (since there isn't a STR/WIS race as of yet).

The only other big issues that I see are the BRV and Tempest builds. Both should have some hard restrictions of not wearing anything higher than Chain, and removing double weapons would fix the Tempest Fighter. And while I know they'll never remove them, I really think that's the only way...either that or you would need to clarify that one side is off-hand, the weapon types only apply to specific ends and you should probably drop the Defensive weapon attribute as well. Otherwise, they're just silly.

Oh, and the Dwarven Stoneblood feat needs to be moved to Paragon...for sure. Without it, you'd only be talking about maybe 3 or 4 THP per attack. While that's still potent against 1st level enemies, against 2nd or 3rd level enemies it's not nearly as good. That, combined with forcing them into Chainmail and only allowing +2 weapons, would still keep the BRV mechanic alive while making it less overpowering. They'd be at least -2 to hit (possibly -3) and -1 AC compared to the Weapon Talent Fighters...which I think is a fair tradeoff.

 

[Quickleaf]

Just curious to folks who feel BRV and Tempest make Fighter Weapon Talent pointless. Would bumping FWT up to +2 balance things out?

 

[FadedC]

Just curious to folks who feel BRV and Tempest make Fighter Weapon Talent pointless. Would bumping FWT up to +2 balance things out?

Hmm...well it would make it more of a choice. But I'm not sure if the best solution to a particular class option being overpowered is to try and make every option for that class equally overpowered.

The problem was never that FWT was too weak, it's just that the others are too strong.

 

[Mengu]

The whole concept of min-maxing relies on sacrificing something to gain advantages elsewhere. The Tempest and BRV fighters are very open to this exploit if you are trying to build for high damage output. Similarly BRV fighter is open to the exact same exploit if you are trying to build an extremely defensive fighter.

I think therein lies the problem when we compare weapon talent to the MP options. In MP, they tried to give some options that sacrificed defense for offense. But I think they lost sight of the defender role. They are not supposed to do striker damage. They are not supposed to operate without any support from a leader. Their job is to protect. The new options seem to be much more selfish.

 

[chitzk0i]

Hmm...well it would make it more of a choice. But I'm not sure if the best solution to a particular class option being overpowered is to try and make every option for that class equally overpowered.

The problem was never that FWT was too weak, it's just that the others are too strong.

I would try and add some bonus other than another +1 to hit. For symmetry, I'd aim to add a feature with complexity closer to Tempest Technique or BRV.

My opinion is that two-handed weapon talent needs a bit more of a buff than one-handed weapon talent, so for two-handed talent I'd add something like a once per encounter as a free action after you hit deal an extra one-half your level plus your Dex or Wis mod, whichever is higher. For one-handed weapons, I'm thinking something like a 1/encounter bonus to AC.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

The only other big issues that I see are the BRV and Tempest builds. Both should have some hard restrictions of not wearing anything higher than Chain...

BTW, I had a though on another reason that limiting DRV fighters to just Chain would help to keep them under control. When you look at the Chain Specialization feat, it requires a 15 DEX. So, to be able to get Chain Spec near the beginning of Paragon would mean you'd have to sacrifice some of your CON boost to get it. Assuming that you're not using a race with bonuses to DEX...but if you were, then it would probably mean your CON wasn't as high as a 16 or 18 to begin with.

 

[Mengu]

BTW, I had a though on another reason that limiting DRV fighters to just Chain would help to keep them under control. When you look at the Chain Specialization feat, it requires a 15 DEX. So, to be able to get Chain Spec near the beginning of Paragon would mean you'd have to sacrifice some of your CON boost to get it. Assuming that you're not using a race with bonuses to DEX...but if you were, then it would probably mean your CON wasn't as high as a 16 or 18 to begin with.

With or without specialization, their AC will be equal to or sometimes below striker AC. I don't think they need high dex. The problem with the BRV build that's going for high damage is not that they have a high AC further compounded by an armor specialization feat. It's the crazy amount of temporary hit points, and striker-like damage. They just feel like a much better Barbarian than the Barbarian. The Barbarian's durability is nothing compared to the BRV fighter (I've seen Barbarians go down like a sack of potatoes in no time when surrounded), and yet the BRV fighter can do just as much damage.