A couple of questions on 4E Immortal design

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Not sure I agree. As we see with Avatar, the technology was easily able to mine large swathes of the land and where it faced any real difficulties, bomb the heck out of it.

For Pandora, yes.

But Pandora's ecosystem wasn't that crazily deadly (didn't seem much worse than Ice Age Earth would have been, predator-wise) ... and it's nothing compared to Midworld. Pandora doesn't have any superdeadly immune-to-everything megapredators (that we saw), like the silverslith. (It's said that no one has ever seen one bleed; when one attacked a group of 30 men and 30 furcots only a few were able to escape alive (and totally unable to hurt it) [furcots are basically super-grizzly-bears with 6 legs and human level intelligence, but stronger; one knocks through 3 feet of superstrong concrete later in the book]; the instant-death nerve poison the people use is totally useless (supposedly because it lacks a nervous system, plus its skin is too tough to pierce anyway), it never sleeps, etc.)

And they're much less sneaky than Midworld predators.

In the second book set on Midworld (Mid-Flinx) the ecosystem actually takes out several spaceships that attempt to land; there's a natural fire suppression thing (exploding fire suppressant foam treetrunks) that is triggered by their exhaust.


Silverslith would probably be high Epic - low Legendary Tier; it seems roughly equivalent to a tarrasque, but somewhat bigger

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Rhuarc mate - thanks for posting.

Indeed there are. Though if you have a somewhat competent DM, he won't let one or even more players get such an item for every slot.

At epic levels the item management becomes pretty hard to handle, for both sides.

The players already have a bunch of powers from their Class, Paragon Path, Epic Destiny and Feats, and it will take more than just a little time to get used to this and a really good knowledge of your character to remember all your powers well enough, so that you don't have to sort through them again and again for each combat round. If you add another five or six activation-powers from items, it becomes even more confusing and/or time-consuming. So naturally many players would want items with static properties, though even if they have to remember them as well, it is most of the time easier than a complete new power.

The DM on the other hand knows that, of course, and has to make difficult choices about which item to hand out for which player. Naturally, you want to make the life for your players easier, though it is not the best idea to just give them items for each slot with always active properties (as Ltheb pointed out). They also have to deal with item whislists if you play with this suggestion from the DMG, and I guess most of these lists will include exactly the aforementioned items.

Then there is the issue with Daily Item Usage. Characters have 3+ any milestones of uses per day to use such powers at epic levels. Now with 11-12 item slots which all could offer another Daily power (which are pretty common throughout the magic item list), you have to be careful not to hand out too many of them, or your players won't be able to use all of them, even if they wanted to.

So you see, it's not really easy to decide what is the golden path between these issues, and immortal PCs will probably have even more powers or active effects to deal with. One (in this case UK ) has to be careful with the complexity of high and higher levels of 4E. Though it is nothing compared to 3.5, of course

Very interesting. Obviously I'll be examining these aspects in closer detail gearing up (no pun intended) to the Immortals Handbook 4E release.

I have a few ideas for item folding and artifacts (naturally). One way of doing this may be to flat cap items at Level 30 and only allow artifacts above that. So that ultimately, the benefit of these 'lesser' items will begin to taper off as you progress into the Legendary Tier and be next to irrelevant in the Immortal Tier.

4 'Signature' artifacts in 4E should be enough...maybe I'll even rethink Alabaster...?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

For Pandora, yes.

But Pandora's ecosystem wasn't that crazily deadly (didn't seem much worse than Ice Age Earth would have been, predator-wise) ... and it's nothing compared to Midworld. Pandora doesn't have any superdeadly immune-to-everything megapredators (that we saw), like the silverslith. (It's said that no one has ever seen one bleed; when one attacked a group of 30 men and 30 furcots only a few were able to escape alive (and totally unable to hurt it) [furcots are basically super-grizzly-bears with 6 legs and human level intelligence, but stronger; one knocks through 3 feet of superstrong concrete later in the book]; the instant-death nerve poison the people use is totally useless (supposedly because it lacks a nervous system, plus its skin is too tough to pierce anyway), it never sleeps, etc.)

If it doesn't bleed we can't kill it.

The toughest ecosystem I have ever read about is that of the Tyrannids of 40k. It seems as if they get onto a planets surface its basically game over (maybe if you nuke em' quick enough?). The Tyrannids actually operate at a microbial level (as well as the bigger monstrousities) that can even penetrate respirators and other supposedly sealed suits.

And they're much less sneaky than Midworld predators.

In the second book set on Midworld (Mid-Flinx) the ecosystem actually takes out several spaceships that attempt to land; there's a natural fire suppression thing (exploding fire suppressant foam treetrunks) that is triggered by their exhaust.

I always enjoyed the original Starship Troopers movie where they had the big bugs firing blue 'plasma' (?) at the orbiting spaceships.

Silverslith would probably be high Epic - low Legendary Tier; it seems roughly equivalent to a tarrasque, but somewhat bigger

I think its one possible area we can exploit, although how different such ecosystems would be to say, a very dangerous layer of the Abyss is anyone's guess. So I am not sure if its a fundamental change.

Been trying to think of who would comprise the perfect 4E party for each tier above Epic. Any thoughts on this?

Legendary Tier

Alucard or Dante (Striker)
Bayonetta (Controller)
Elric (Leader)
Kratos or War (Defender)

Immortal Tier

Hanuman/Goku (Striker)
Nyarlathotep (Controller)
Thanos (Leader)
Thor (Defender)

Sidereal Tier

Galactus (Striker)
Lady of Pain (Leader)
Lucifer (Controller)
? (Defender)

 

[Belzamus]

Since you mentioned 40K above, UK, what tier/level do you imagine their more powerful stuff operating at?

Say...a Warmonger Titan?

Or the God-Emperor himself?

 

[Axolotl]

The toughest ecosystem I have ever read about is that of the Tyrannids of 40k. It seems as if they get onto a planets surface its basically game over (maybe if you nuke em' quick enough?). The Tyrannids actually operate at a microbial level (as well as the bigger monstrousities) that can even penetrate respirators and other supposedly sealed suits.

As a masive 40k nerd who really likes the Tyranids I want to say you can defeat them after planetfall (nuke and other doomsday weapons won't workthough) but to defeat them requires desruction of the space support and then a long ground war to wipe out all of them that landed on the planet.

As organisms they go from ultra-powerful icrobes all the way up to several mile long spaceship type things, possibly even larger.

One of the things I wanted to do for 4e was convert a bunch of the more appropriate stuff from 40k, I was just waiting for you to finish some post 30th level stuff for a decent baseline for comparisson.

Legendary Tier

Alucard or Dante (Striker)
Bayonetta (Controller)
Elric (Leader)
Kratos or War (Defender)

Is that Elric of Stormbringer fame or somebody else?

Sidereal Tier

Galactus (Striker)
Lady of Pain (Leader)
Lucifer (Controller)
? (Defender)

The Greek titan Atlas maybe?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Since you mentioned 40K above, UK, what tier/level do you imagine their more powerful stuff operating at?

Say...a Warmonger Titan?

Or the God-Emperor himself?

Well I think to best judge we have to find a parallel point. In this case it probably has to be the Bloodthirster and the Balor.

So you have to judge whether or not a specific creature is weaker or stronger than a Bloodthirster, which is rare for certainly statted creatures. Maybe Archaon, Nagash and one or two others in Warhammer and the Emperor, Horus, those Necron masters in 40k.

I'd probably have the Chaos Gods as Greater powers, albeit weak ones. So each of them would be in and around Level 37 solo opponents. So thats the upper limit sorted.

I think I'd sort Titans using the Mega Rules but that they would probably be Level 31, 32 solos at best.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

As a masive 40k nerd who really likes the Tyranids I want to say you can defeat them after planetfall (nuke and other doomsday weapons won't workthough) but to defeat them requires desruction of the space support and then a long ground war to wipe out all of them that landed on the planet.

As organisms they go from ultra-powerful icrobes all the way up to several mile long spaceship type things, possibly even larger.

One of the things I wanted to do for 4e was convert a bunch of the more appropriate stuff from 40k, I was just waiting for you to finish some post 30th level stuff for a decent baseline for comparisson.

I'll have a lot of Pseudonatural stuff in the second 4E monster book...actually technically the third if we count the Vampire Bestiary. I'll also have a new Pseudonatural race in the Immortals Handbook 4E.

Is that Elric of Stormbringer fame or somebody else?

It is indeed Elric of Stormbringer fame.

The Greek titan Atlas maybe?

Dunno, he did get beaten by the gods, would he necessarily be Sidereal Tier I wonder?

 

[Pssthpok]

Galactus (Striker)
Lady of Pain (Leader)
Lucifer (Controller)
? (Defender)

Tulkas, from Middle-earth mythology might be a good fit here.

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

Dunno, he did get beaten by the gods, would he necessarily be Sidereal Tier I wonder?

Well, the Titans were holding their own or winning in the Titanomachy until the Hecatoncheires were brought in and the Cyclopes started helping the gods.

You said several years back that the Greek Titans should be Elder Ones.

Also when did Lucifer become Sidereal Tier? You listed him in the Epic Bestiary as an Intermediate Deity-equivalent.

I don't think Nyarlathotep should be Immortal Tier ... I'd count him as a Sidereal (Probably the First One of the Dimension of Entropy, since he basically represents entropy). In Lovecraft he is vastly more powerful than the 'standard' gods of Earth (Nodens, Neptune etc.)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Well, the Titans were holding their own or winning in the Titanomachy until the Hecatoncheires were brought in and the Cyclopes started helping the gods.

You said several years back that the Greek Titans should be Elder Ones.

Thats true, but I don't consider Atlas one of the progenitor titans by any means, so I wouldn't have him as an Elder One, Uranus, Kronos, Gaia and others yes.

Also when did Lucifer become Sidereal Tier? You listed him in the Epic Bestiary as an Intermediate Deity-equivalent.

You'll have to read Angels & Devils (or whatever that book will ultimately be named) to find out.

I don't think Nyarlathotep should be Immortal Tier ... I'd count him as a Sidereal (Probably the First One of the Dimension of Entropy, since he basically represents entropy). In Lovecraft he is vastly more powerful than the 'standard' gods of Earth (Nodens, Neptune etc.)

'Vastly' you say...can you expound upon that?