Keith Baker wrote a post here: http://gloomforge.livejournal.com/12135.html
Talking about the concerns we've all had with the skill challenge system. I wanted to comment about them, mainly because I can't seem to stop talking about the skill challenge system
First of all, Mr. Baker speaks about the DM's best friend: The +2 to reward creative thinking:
A great little rule, one DMs should be encouraged to do for many aspects of the Dnd game. But...how much of an effect does it have on the skill challenge system? I should mention I am using a computer simulation for my math answers, which takes into account variable initiative. However, its possible my numbers are off by around .5% or so, so bear that in mind.
For example, let's take a 5 man level 2 party, and use that +10 bonus Mr. Baker has suggested is what we should have for a level 2 party. I'm going to use a complexity 3 challenge (8/4) since that should gives us a good average look at things. That gives us a win rate of 19.41%
Alright, let's see what happens if we give a players a permanent +2 dm bonus, basically this player is just chock full of creativity. The new win rate: 23.1%. Certainly an improvement, but doesn't really tip the balance in the player's favor.
And the question also becomes, how commonplace should the +2 bonus be? Should as I DM be giving out the bonuses like candy to ensure my players can win skill challenges? In other words, how much should the system depend on the DM's best friend?
He then goes on to speak about Aid Another:
So Aid Another is definitely a part of skill challenges, though not necessarily always a part. And this is a place I have to greatly disagree with Mr. Baker. I've run the math on the system when you use aid another and when you don't. The results are extremely polar. Allowing aid another in quantity can take a challenge from a 15% win to a 89% win. Basically when the DM is saying you can use aid another or not he's telling you if you can beat this challenge or not.
Now, DMs are ALWAYS doing that in the sense that they determine the challenge, and any DM can make a challenge so hard that the players can't win. But..I would imagine most DMs would go into a skill challenge thinking the players have a good shot, and that aid another would be a special allowance to be kind and encourage teamwork, not to be a mandatory necessity in order to win a challenge. I speak from experience while creating my own skill challenge system, that aid another can be a very swingy event, and its power has to be contained.
Further, aid another GREATLY hinders smaller parties over larger ones. A party of 3 or 4 simply can't aid like a larger party can. Now combat challenges are scaled for this, smaller groups fight smaller monsters. In a skill challenge system you can lower the complexity but that doesn't help the group that much, no where near as good as having another +2 from aid another.
Mr. Baker continues with his article and dives into the realm of utility powers. He mentions the astral speech power that his paladin has. Let's add that +4 bonus into our skill challenge, and see what comes about: 26.8%. Again, great improvement, but certainly not close to a winning scenario yet. Oh, let's go ahead and add in our permanent DM's buddy while we are at it. The win rate now: 31.8%.
Once again though, I have to question the assertion that skill challenge balance should be based on powers players may or may not take. Combat has been balanced because every class has to take combat powers, you have no choice. You will have powers to use in combat. But as for skill challenges, that's up in the air.
Mr. Baker's last main comment deals with partial successes in a skill challenge. I found this the most interesting section, here's a quote:
While the DMG has nothing about this, I could completely believe this was WOTC's intent with the skill challenge system. And it makes some sense, so let's see what happens:
I think most DMs would agree there are a couple of key points we could look at. 1st, the midway point, that seems like a good place to say the party gained some ground. That would be 4 successes, the odds of that with our party is: 61.0% that are party reaches the midway point in a skill challenge. Let's add in our customized party with our astral tongued paladin and our DM blessed guy: 73.05%, not too shabby.
Now, how about getting to 6 successes, basically 3/4 of the way there. Regular Party: 36.0%. Ouch, so the party won't be able to make it even 3/4 of the way in most cases. How about are customized group? 50.2%. They are just breaking even on making it even 3/4 of the way through the challenge.
To me, that's really challenging. I as a DM could think about rewarding my group if they got close to beating the challenge, but the numbers show that even that is pretty unlikely. Not only does the party fail regularly, it doesn't even get close usually.
Finally, there is one key statement Mr. Baker said that I wanted to finish up with:
Yet if we look at the DMG for guidance, how challenging should a skill challenge really be? Afterall, a complexity 5 level 2 skill challenge is the same "challenge" as 5 level 2 monsters against a level 2 party. But I don't know about other people, I don't find that fight particularly challenging. The vast majority of the time, my party wins that fight. They might lose a surge or two, but there's little risk of losing the fight, or losing a party member. Normally I have to bump up the level for that.
And I think in the long run that's my final point about the system. A skill challenge equal to my party's level isn't supposed to be so challenging that I need utility powers, DM fiat, and aid another to have a good shot at beating it, not to mention that every player gets to use one of their best skills, which isn't always possible either. If I want a harder challenge, I would simply bump up the level of the skill challenge. Now if the general community doesn't agree with me on this point, then I'll gladly back down. But I think in general, people think an equal level challenge is supposed to be beatable a good majority of the time, not something they have to get super creative and pull out all of the stops for.
Talking about the concerns we've all had with the skill challenge system. I wanted to comment about them, mainly because I can't seem to stop talking about the skill challenge system
First of all, Mr. Baker speaks about the DM's best friend: The +2 to reward creative thinking:
A great little rule, one DMs should be encouraged to do for many aspects of the Dnd game. But...how much of an effect does it have on the skill challenge system? I should mention I am using a computer simulation for my math answers, which takes into account variable initiative. However, its possible my numbers are off by around .5% or so, so bear that in mind.
For example, let's take a 5 man level 2 party, and use that +10 bonus Mr. Baker has suggested is what we should have for a level 2 party. I'm going to use a complexity 3 challenge (8/4) since that should gives us a good average look at things. That gives us a win rate of 19.41%
Alright, let's see what happens if we give a players a permanent +2 dm bonus, basically this player is just chock full of creativity. The new win rate: 23.1%. Certainly an improvement, but doesn't really tip the balance in the player's favor.
And the question also becomes, how commonplace should the +2 bonus be? Should as I DM be giving out the bonuses like candy to ensure my players can win skill challenges? In other words, how much should the system depend on the DM's best friend?
He then goes on to speak about Aid Another:
So Aid Another is definitely a part of skill challenges, though not necessarily always a part. And this is a place I have to greatly disagree with Mr. Baker. I've run the math on the system when you use aid another and when you don't. The results are extremely polar. Allowing aid another in quantity can take a challenge from a 15% win to a 89% win. Basically when the DM is saying you can use aid another or not he's telling you if you can beat this challenge or not.
Now, DMs are ALWAYS doing that in the sense that they determine the challenge, and any DM can make a challenge so hard that the players can't win. But..I would imagine most DMs would go into a skill challenge thinking the players have a good shot, and that aid another would be a special allowance to be kind and encourage teamwork, not to be a mandatory necessity in order to win a challenge. I speak from experience while creating my own skill challenge system, that aid another can be a very swingy event, and its power has to be contained.
Further, aid another GREATLY hinders smaller parties over larger ones. A party of 3 or 4 simply can't aid like a larger party can. Now combat challenges are scaled for this, smaller groups fight smaller monsters. In a skill challenge system you can lower the complexity but that doesn't help the group that much, no where near as good as having another +2 from aid another.
Mr. Baker continues with his article and dives into the realm of utility powers. He mentions the astral speech power that his paladin has. Let's add that +4 bonus into our skill challenge, and see what comes about: 26.8%. Again, great improvement, but certainly not close to a winning scenario yet. Oh, let's go ahead and add in our permanent DM's buddy while we are at it. The win rate now: 31.8%.
Once again though, I have to question the assertion that skill challenge balance should be based on powers players may or may not take. Combat has been balanced because every class has to take combat powers, you have no choice. You will have powers to use in combat. But as for skill challenges, that's up in the air.
Mr. Baker's last main comment deals with partial successes in a skill challenge. I found this the most interesting section, here's a quote:
While the DMG has nothing about this, I could completely believe this was WOTC's intent with the skill challenge system. And it makes some sense, so let's see what happens:
I think most DMs would agree there are a couple of key points we could look at. 1st, the midway point, that seems like a good place to say the party gained some ground. That would be 4 successes, the odds of that with our party is: 61.0% that are party reaches the midway point in a skill challenge. Let's add in our customized party with our astral tongued paladin and our DM blessed guy: 73.05%, not too shabby.
Now, how about getting to 6 successes, basically 3/4 of the way there. Regular Party: 36.0%. Ouch, so the party won't be able to make it even 3/4 of the way in most cases. How about are customized group? 50.2%. They are just breaking even on making it even 3/4 of the way through the challenge.
To me, that's really challenging. I as a DM could think about rewarding my group if they got close to beating the challenge, but the numbers show that even that is pretty unlikely. Not only does the party fail regularly, it doesn't even get close usually.
Finally, there is one key statement Mr. Baker said that I wanted to finish up with:
Yet if we look at the DMG for guidance, how challenging should a skill challenge really be? Afterall, a complexity 5 level 2 skill challenge is the same "challenge" as 5 level 2 monsters against a level 2 party. But I don't know about other people, I don't find that fight particularly challenging. The vast majority of the time, my party wins that fight. They might lose a surge or two, but there's little risk of losing the fight, or losing a party member. Normally I have to bump up the level for that.
And I think in the long run that's my final point about the system. A skill challenge equal to my party's level isn't supposed to be so challenging that I need utility powers, DM fiat, and aid another to have a good shot at beating it, not to mention that every player gets to use one of their best skills, which isn't always possible either. If I want a harder challenge, I would simply bump up the level of the skill challenge. Now if the general community doesn't agree with me on this point, then I'll gladly back down. But I think in general, people think an equal level challenge is supposed to be beatable a good majority of the time, not something they have to get super creative and pull out all of the stops for.
Last edited:
