A discussion of metagame concepts in game design

[Maxperson]

In weightlifting in particular, being able to fire yourself up and draw upon deep reserves of stamina and willpower is very, very, very important and pretty much critical to success. In martial arts, going all-out 100% of the time isn't going to do anything other than tiring yourself out.

That's not a second wind, though. Read the link above. There are different methods you use when being physical. Focusing willpower to go beyond your normal stamina limit is not the same as a second wind kicking in.

 

[heretic888]

I think when it's said someone is going all out in this context they mean they are striving to kill the enemy in the optimal way. That doesn't mean you are physically exerting yourself to the max every second. It does mean you have an eye for potential exploits and when your enemy gives you that opening you take it. Realize also we are mostly talking about life and death blows. Driving a sword into an enemies chest. Not sparring.

So the idea that you can suddenly by choice have a greater chance of success than you normally do does not sit well with me. It seems you'd want to do whatever it is you did again if it was effective. Now if it does strain you, you might not do it again immediately but the arbitrary ten minutes or one day limitations do not reflect reality. If you are a well trained warrior and you can do your best move once per turn then you aren't a great warrior.

Now if instead you said that whenever an enemy's AC was exceeded by some large number, the fighter could perform a special manuever that would make sense. The enemy has done poorly defensively and left open just the sort of opening that the fighter can exploit.

I'm sorry, Emerikol, but there are low-impact maneuvers that can only be used in specific circumstances but are highly effective when pulled off. This is what limited use martial exploits represent. Now, yes, you could represent these maneuvers by making a melee combat system that is incredibly detailed and complicated and give specific fictional triggers for when to pull these off. However, at that point you are asking for way more cognitive load than even complicated systems like Pathfinder are typically willing to adhere to.

Just as you have previously argued for in this thread in regards to Armor Class and hit points, its an abstraction. I mean, seriously, I could nitpick why armor doesn't reduce damage from received blows to argue why Armor Class doesn't "make sense" --- and I would have just as much standing as your position on limited use martial abilities. The only difference between Armor Class and Martial Exploits is one is an abstraction that you have internalized and familiarized yourself to such a degree that it doesn't register as "metagame" to you while the other one does.

Abstractions always sacrifice verisimilitude for simplicity and ease-of-use. Its a trade off you accept when you use them.

 

[heretic888]

That's not a second wind, though. Read the link above. There are different methods you use when being physical. Focusing willpower to go beyond your normal stamina limit is not the same as a second wind kicking in.

It sounds like your issue is less with the concept than the name, then.

 

[Maxperson]

It sounds like your issue is less with the concept than the name, then.

Name is concept, though. If a game calls a long distance run over several miles a sprint, rather than a marathon, either the name or concept is wrong. The name sprint evokes one concept, a short, fast race, and the name marathon evokes a completely different concept. The name has to match the concept or the game has failed in that instance.

 

[heretic888]

Name is concept, though. If a game calls a long distance run over several miles a sprint, rather than a marathon, either the name or concept is wrong. The name sprint evokes one concept, a short, fast race, and the name marathon evokes a completely different concept. The name has to match the concept or the game has failed in that instance.

That's fine, I'm certainly not attached to the name. I can only speak from my own personal experiences, where drawing upon one's willpower to do something intensely physically demanding is a) definitely a thing, b) something human beings can do of their own volition with practice and experience, and c) not something you can do as often as you want to (i.e., its a "limited use" ability we might say).

I have no problem abstracting such athletic or martial exploits as "encounter powers" or "short rest abilities" or whatever. It 100% matches my experience in sports and martial arts.

 

[Maxperson]

That's fine, I'm certainly not attached to the name. I can only speak from my own personal experiences, where drawing upon one's willpower to do something intensely physically demanding is a) definitely a thing, b) something human beings can do of their own volition with practice and experience, and c) not something you can do as often as you want to (i.e., its a "limited use" ability we might say).

I have no problem abstracting such athletic or martial exploits as "encounter powers" or "short rest abilities" or whatever. It 100% matches my experience in sports and martial arts.

It's not my thing and I didn't enjoy 4e, but I'm all for everyone playing the type of game that they enjoy, and 4e had its place.

 

[pemerton]

Name is concept, though.

So how come, then, a Cure Light Wounds spell can heal most ordinary people (in classic D&D, B/X, AD&D and 3E) from dying or on their last legs, to full health?

 

[Maxperson]

So how come, then, a Cure Light Wounds spell can heal most ordinary people (in classic D&D, B/X, AD&D and 3E) from dying or on their last legs, to full health?

It's a bad name for the spell.

 

[pemerton]

It's a bad name for the spell.

What would be a good name that was consistent with hp not being metagame?

 

[Shasarak]

It's a bad name for the spell.

That is true, especially if characters dont take wounds! ;0)