a few questions about the BARD

[mooby]

I'm looking to play a bard in my next game. the DM is pretty loose with the rules, so he'll allow me to either play a 3.0 bard or a 3.5.


Which class is more powerful? I'm leaning towards the 3.5 version b/c of the added skills.

What's the best min/max race for this class? I'm thinking either human (more skills) or 1/2 elf (diplomacy bonus; 3.5).

I want to make a social-situation kind of character. i need lots of ranks in bluff, diplomacy, and obviously max out perform. I'm also thinking sense motive and gather information will be important. What other skills should I consider maxing out?

Oh yeah, I'll be taking the role of minor healer as well as the rogue's job in the party. I'm thinking of taking my first level in rogue (disarm traps, and more skill points).


any help or opinions are appreciated. thnx

 

[MarauderX]

Taking a level in rogue may be kinda worthless, as most of the skills and such are the same for each class, as is a level in Sorcerer. Not useful enough to warrant taking a level in either, as you already have the skills and magic enough to get by.

I would go the elf route with 3.5. You will be relegated to being a back line support fighter, so you may was well boost your Dex to help your BAB and AC. Depending on the level you are starting at, you may want to take your 1st level in Ranger or Fighter for the feats if they interest you, but since you are leaning to a social character I doubt it would help.

I would max out your Diplomancy, Bluff, Perform, and even Appraise skills for social situations. To cover the rogue angle, sink some into Move Silent, Hide, and Pick Locks. Let the fighters take Climb and such so you can max out the other skills.

 

[Nifft]

IMHO the 3.5 Bard is superior, cooler and more fun.

Suggestions:

1) You are proficient with the Whip, normally an exotic weapon. If you take the Expertise -> Imp. Trip and/or Imp. Disarm route, you could play an Indiana Jones type of temple raider. Ask your DM if he'll allow you to do cool non-combat tricks with your whip.

2) You're not a Rogue and your party has no Rogue. So, will your DM use a lot of traps? Well, is he using pre-made modules or writing his own stuff? In other words, will he penalize you heavliy for not taking a level of Rogue? Ask him.

3) Who's your party's Face? Will you be doing most of the talking? Pick up some ranks in Sense Motive at least one or two social skills; every level improve Sense Motive and one or two social skills, too. Get Bluff high at first, as it helps nearly everything. Diplomacy and Intimidate are good, too.

4) Where will you be spending most of your time, City or Dungeon? Cities require social skills, Dungeons require stealth and larceny -- and may require a Rogue level for traps & stuff.

5) Bards gain spells slowly enough that it's not to your benefit to take levels in anything else, if you expect your magic to play any part in adventures. You really want to get to 4th level Bard ASAP, so you can take 2nd level spells (the best is Suggestion, a 2nd level spell only for Bards). Likewise for higher level Bard spells -- once your Bard reaches 7th level, he can cast Glibness -- a Bard-only spell that evades most magical truth detectors.

6) If you're expected to cast Cure spells, hurry to 2nd level ASAP. You're going to like casting Cure Light Wounds a lot more than Cure Minor Wound (the 0-level Cantrip).

-- N

 

[Nifft]

Oh, and consider being a Gnome, Half-Elf or a Human, as well as being an Elf. They've all got advantages.

-- N

 

[Zaruthustran]

3.5 Bard is much better than 3.0 Bard. Go 3.5.

I suggest you play a Human. A human gets an extra feat, which you can spend on Negotiator for a +2 bonus to Diplomacy and Sense Motive. This one feat gives you the same Diplomacy bonus as the half-elf, but you also get +2 to Sense Motive and bonus skill points.

Put your highest or second-highest stat in Int, then Cha, then whatever you like. Max out your social skills and knowledge: nobility. At the least, get:

Diplomacy 4
Know: Nobil 4
Sense Motive 4
Bluff 4

The last three all give +2 synergy bonuses to Diplomacy once you pick up 5 ranks. 5 ranks is all you need in Know: Nobil; after 2nd level stop maxing it out and put the point in another skill.

Other skills to consider, in order of value:
Tumble (at least 1 point)
Know: history (gives synergy to Bardic Knowledge)
Know: Arcana
Speak Language (your main role is "talker", so you're useless if you don't speak the language)
Spellcraft
Gather Information
Disguise
Sleight of Hand
Hide
Listen
Move Silently

I recommend you not get any levels in any class other than Bard. Instead of trying to be a rogue, use your high charisma and social skills to hire a good rogue.

For feats, I'd go with Combat Expertise or Improved Trip at first level, Negotiator at 3rd level, and Leadership at 6th level. If you're not strong instead go with Spell Focus: Enchantment and Improved Initiative.

You may consider going for the Holy Liberator prestige class so that you can get Divine Grace (Cha bonus to saves). If you do that you'll need the Iron Will feat. Also consider Mindbender--being able to communicate telepathicly is a HUGE benefit to bards.

Your combat role is to prevent combat by using Diplomacy and Fascinate. Failing that, your role is to take out bad guys with spells (Tasha's Laughter, Sleep, Cause Fear, even the lowly Daze), boost and protect the party with music, and use your whip to Aid Another from 15' away. You're not a damage dealer so don't try to be. Bards can make decent archers but doing a puny d8 arrow damage is less valuable than giving +2 to-hit to your raging barbarian pal who's swinging his +1 frost greatsword for 2d6 + 1d6 + 10. If you've got Improved Trip, you effectively DOUBLE the benefit of both Aid Other's Attack *and* Aid Other's AC. And you deny the target a Full Attack. And you give your melee pals an AoO attack when the target stands up or crawls away.

Hope this helps.

-z

 

[Gnome Berzerker]

Great input, I only have a little bit to add:

Go 3.5, it really goes a long way in improving the Bard class. If you can go with the 3.5 Gnome, do it. Their bonus to Illusion spells will really help you out.

 

[Darklone]

Uhm, since when does the Bard get Cure Minor wounds?

Actually, it's one of my houserules (as well as CMW curing 1d4 hitpoints)... but not core.

 

[The Souljourner]

Definitely don't multiclass (unless you really want a few levels of Holy Liberator). You're already a jack of all trades, what do you need levels in othe classes for?

And don't think you can't fight in combat, it's not true. You can be pretty darn good - with light armor, a shield, and alter self, you can actually have the best AC in the party, and 3/4 BAB is perfectly adequate for hitting things. Just don't dump you strength score, if you can manage it.

If you have a healer and a wizard/sorcerer in the party, try to take most of the unique bard spells, and ones that the other casters might not think of.

Most of all - play it up! A bard should be boisterous and fun! You get to have all the enthusiasm of the paladin without the stuffiness. Take it over the top, and everyone will have more fun.

-The Souljourner

 

[Nifft]

Uhm, since when does the Bard get Cure Minor wounds?

Good gravey! They don't!

Sorry for the mis-information... -- N

 

[two]

I would not choose suggestion as a spell for 2nd level spells. You get it as a class feature at 6th level and, well, you just don't know that many spells. Avoid overlap.

Also, you can sing AND shoot arrows at the same time. It seemed as though somebody above had the impression you had to inspire courage OR fight; do both!

Pace: "Bards can make decent archers but doing a puny d8 arrow damage is less valuable than giving +2 to-hit to your raging barbarian pal who's swinging his +1 frost greatsword for 2d6 + 1d6 + 10."

Also use the bone horn from Song&Silence at lower levels; it grants +2 to hit/+2 damage from level 1 onward.

Might consider something fun and goofy like a throwing dagger master; quickdraw, PBS, rapid shot, precise shot after blowing the horn gives 1d4 + strength + 3 damage per dagger. Not completely great, but not totally lame either.

Or the boring archer route is always good, since the morale bonus works with arrows. etc.