A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

I think you are taking things a bit too literally here. I am definitely not arguing that people are figuring out how it would really play out if this fictional setting was modeling real world causality. All I am saying is when the GM makes a determination, "What do I think would really happen here" is a perfectly valid way to decide, and it can result in a world that feels believable. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that the GM is somehow tapping into what would really happen. It is a judgement call. I think that you have the same person making this judgement over the course of the campaign does tend to produce a sense of a consistent world. But no one is claiming perfection here. We are just claiming it is perfectly fine and works for our purposes. Also you can make that judgement using any number of criteria: what would be most cinematic? What would be mosts genre appropriate? What would be the most exciting? What would be the most scary? etc. You can even combine these things: What would really happen and ALSO be exciting?

Sure, and as I say, I think there is coherency, which dictates that at the very least the players are able to look at what they know about the game world and come up with a determination of what they will find when they go into the inn. All of the possible criteria can be factored there too, though it is certainly a positive when you can say "well, the CHARACTERS line of reasoning was..." and it doesn't come across as completely absurd (because, again coherency, if my character's personality and story are based on internally inconsistent material its hard to understand or portray).

I don't think you and I, and probably a lot of the other people around here, are really saying anything too different. I do think some people put more emphasis on this idea than seems needed by me, but its just different strokes.
 

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Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Yeah, but that's also not what I'm describing. What I'm talking about is everyone being able to react to everyone else in roughly real time. In a combat situation, as the party and the 20 goblins move, it's unlikely that they are going to be able to move more than 5 feet without the combat adjusting to what is going on. So every 5 feet you have 20+ combatants reacting to each other moving, and to attacks, spells, and more.

You can definitely get more realism out of combat than D&D has without bogging it down, but you can't get anywhere close to reality without it being a nightmare.

It’s pretty close to that. They are telling me what they are doing. I tell them what the monsters are doing, and they are changing what they are doing at that point in time. We’re not going around the table one at a time, it’s sort of a free conversation as it goes, rilling and resolving actions as we go. It’s not a nightmare, but it is sometimes chaotic. But that’s sort of the point.
 

S'mon

Legend
I do however use random dice rolls when determining what the players encounter while exploring. But I always give myself the freedom to ignore the outcome, if it doesn't seem fitting.

Conversely, I love not giving myself the freedom, by telling the players in advance - "OK you make it safely to port - UNLESS I roll a 20 on this die...." (said on Sunday).

It's part of the Free Kriegsspiel approach I like to tell the players the odds.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I'm pretty sure the whole "argument by degenerate example" was covered awhile ago. Yes, ANY method becomes bad if allowed to degenerate, this is trivial. No one is suggesting you only say yes, so let's not use that as an example.

Further, if you're playing where players only have a 1 in 10k random chance of advancing their goal, that's another pretty useless example of bad play.
I didn't read what he wrote as saying either of these. Instead I saw it as putting a point I made earlier into different words: coincidence (the 1-in-10000 occurrence) is fine once in a while and can make for a better story but when it happens too often it breaks plausibility, believability, realism, and-or whatever other term one wants to put to it.

The discussion here is really that none of us are using realism to decide outcomes, we're using systems (from random to GM decides) to present a coherent fictional world in-line with the themes and tropes we'd like to play. "Seems like a real world" is a laudable trope, but it's not realism, and no method we have can make it so. What we have are various means of applying judgement that create believable outcomes, where "believable" is largely subjective based on group tastes.

Why is this important? Well, it seems obvious, but what happens is that people start using terms to bolster their preferences and nake them sound as if they're more betterer. Like "realism." Or, "playing to find out what's in the GM's notes." It's all petty one-up-manship. If you take a different playstyle at it's best when discussing it, and are honest about the foibles of your own, most of this conversation wouldn't happen. It's okay that your play has potholes -- they all do.
Of course it has potholes. :)

All I try to do is identify a goal (a plausible-believable internally-consistent setting based on reality where possible) and then point out some means of getting closer to said goal.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
So, for example, once my 11th level Ranger leaped off a high cliff because he wanted to catch up with some bad guys. Sure, he knew he was going to take some damage, but I knew that the falling rules coupled with the height of the cliff meant death was vanishingly unlikely and the character possessed some magic which would make up for the hit point deficit later. No person unfamiliar with the rules of D&D would have understood that decision. Any reasonable person would call a 200' fall lethal 99.99% of the time.
And that is exactly the sort of thing I want to see gone from the game: that someone without magical flight or featherfall or whatever can jump off a 200' cliff (assuming earth-like gravity) in pretty much full knowledge that he's going to survive.

The point is, the conventions and processes of game play are what is transcendent at the table. Internally consistent logic is pretty thin and the fact that we could in some theoretical white room try to make our game work in a logical or realistic fashion is irrelevant to any discussion of actual games at actual tables.
I disagree, in that I'd - perhaps naively - like to think that the contributions to the white room discussions are based on what actually happens at our tables...and or might give some ideas as to how to better adjudicate what happens.

Nothing's ever perfect, but we can always try to get closer. :)
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
And that is exactly the sort of thing I want to see gone from the game: that someone without magical flight or featherfall or whatever can jump off a 200' cliff (assuming earth-like gravity) in pretty much full knowledge that he's going to survive.

I dont think that I would play a version of DnD where a high level Fighter could not survive jumping off a 200' cliff. That just does not sound realistic to me.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Nothing's ever perfect, but we can always try to get closer. :)
A chief problem is that this presumes that there is a singular idea for what perfection entails or should entail. But based upon your own stated game preferences and ideals, that hypothetical game far from constitutes any notion of "perfect" that I would put forth. And I'll admit that this attitude also contributes to some of the aggravation I have our discussions.
 

pemerton

Legend
Adventure fiction - heck, fiction in general - depends on coincidence: people turn up, or fail to turn up, at the appropriate moment; opportunities arise, or fail to arise, at just the time that will drive the protagonist to action; etc.

That's not to say that fiction must be "unrealistic" in the sense of wildly implausible. It is to say that, if you looked at 1,000 human lives, few or even none of them would exhibit the same degree of dramatic "neatness" and development as one finds in fiction. For the same reason, even the lives of people who lived exciting and dramatic lives generally need editing to be rendered dramatically apt (eg for biopic films or historical novels). The editing needed to make real human lives dramatic can be large or can be small, but editing is required.

There are a range of techniques, in the context of RPGs, for managing the editing, the content introduction, etc. The most obvious and (I posit) universal one is that of choosing what events to spend time on in the context of play, and which ones to elide. Do we bother to play out all the time spent looking for the sect members, or do we just cut to the discovery of them? And if the latter, do we mark of "time spent" on a campaign tracker as part of the process, or not? Different systems suggest different answers.

In Classic Traveller, a PC or group of PCs spends a week looking for a patron to hire them to undertake some (typically exciting) mission, they have a 1 in 3 chance of finding such a person. Is that realistic? - We are marking off time on the campaign tracker, after all, and in Traveller that will cost you money for upkeep, berthing costs for your starship and ultimately ageing rolls for your PC. Or is it unrealistic? - I've got a skillset comparable to some of the characters the Traveller PC gen rules can yield, but I don't think if I spent a week hanging out in "bars, taverns, clubs . . . or any other likely places" (to quote from Book 3) that I would have a 1 in 18 chance of being approached by an Arsonist, Cutthroat, Assassin, Hijacker, Smuggler or Terrorist (to pluck the top line from the 6 lines of the random patron table).

In the Star Wars universe, how often are bar patrons maimed or killed in bar fights? We don't know - the inspiration for those scenes in the original movie is the western, not a bureau of statistics report on the incidence of drinking-hole violence. If I sit down to play a Star Wars game and there are none of those western-style tropes, then the game is going to suck.

In the universe of Classic Traveller, it's a given that dubious persons who hang out in "likely places" will be hired by somewhat shadowy, sometimes unlikely, patrons to undertake dubious, shadowy and unlikely tasks. That's what makes the game happen. (Or is at least one way the game happens. The other is to play a trading game. But that variant also rests on tropes that weren't conceived of via statistical analysis.)

If I was playing a game which features sect members and teahouses (or cultists and inns) then personally I would expect that from time to time a visit to the teahouse will result in a meeting with sect members. Different systems and different moods will affect how much we care about time spent waiting for sect members to show up, money spent bribing hospitality staff for tip-offs, etc - but that doesn't change the underlying expectation.
 

Conversely, I love not giving myself the freedom, by telling the players in advance - "OK you make it safely to port - UNLESS I roll a 20 on this die...." (said on Sunday).

It's part of the Free Kriegsspiel approach I like to tell the players the odds.

I love doing this as well. Or I'll ask my players to roll a D20 to determine what happens during their travels, and they know that a 20 means "YIKES!".
Telling the players the odds can create suspense, while also showing the players what rules you are using. I like to be as open as possible when it comes to my rulings as a DM.
 

If I was playing a game which features sect members and teahouses (or cultists and inns) then personally I would expect that from time to time a visit to the teahouse will result in a meeting with sect members. Different systems and different moods will affect how much we care about time spent waiting for sect members to show up, money spent bribing hospitality staff for tip-offs, etc - but that doesn't change the underlying expectation.

That is an entirely reasonable expectation on your part. If you were in my group, I'd consider that kind of expectation when trying to figure out how to make the determination. The intent here isn't to clamp down on a gaming principle, even if it ruins everyone's fun. But that doesn't make it mother may I, if a GM reaches a decision by concluding based on what he or she thinks would be present at the Tea House. It makes it, a style of play Pemerton wouldn't particularly like. Which is entirely reasonable and it is even fair for you to expect the GM to not be a jerk about his style if other people want something different from what's being offered.

And like I said before, what is plausible might be one factor among many the GM is weighing. I have no issue with the GM thinking 'what is plausible AND what is genre appropriate' or 'what is plausible AND what is dramatically interesting'. That is all fine by me. I also have no problem with the GM saying 'I don't know so I am going to roll on this here chart'.
 

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