D&D 5E A Lich with a Clone?

[travathian]

Based on reading the 5E PHB spell Clone and the MM listing for the Lich, it would seem possible for a Lich to have a clone.

Key wording:
"At any time after the clone matures, if the original creatures dies, its soul transfers to the clone, provided that the soul is free and willing."

The tricky part is the wording of the Lich in the MM:
"The wizard falls dead, then rises as a lich as its soul is drawn into the phylactery, where it forever remains."
"Because the destruction of its phylactery means the possibility of eternal death . . ."

1) Wizard creates clone
2) Wizard creates phylactery
3) Wizard undergoes the lichedom process, and wills its soul go to the phylactery, not the clone
4) Wizard lich now has a phylactery with a soul in it, and should it be destroyed, the soul can willingly go to the clone

Arguments both for and against that I have come up with so far:
FOR: Clone is clearly worded that the clone remains viable forever, assuming it isnt disturbed, so the potential long life of the lich isn't an issue.
FOR: Clone states the soul must be free and willing, implying that the soul has a choice in the matter, and thus chose the phylactery over the clone.
FOR: The "eternal death" wording above reasons that the lich would 'die' if its phylactery were destroyed, thus triggering the wording in the clone spell.
FOR/AGAINST: The soul in a phylactery could be interpreted as being destroyed when the phylactery is destroyed, but the word "possibility" leaves it open that maybe it isn't?
AGAINST: It could be interpreted that upon death, if the soul doesn't go into the clone, that the clone now becomes non-viable.
AGAINST: Liches are psychotic, and wouldn't want to have their soul go back into a flesh and blood body, or if they did, might go completely off the hook when it happens.

Now we have a wizard who creates a clone, undergoes lichedom. Said lich then takes clone to super secret hiding spot. Within super secret hiding spot, the lich leaves: backup spell book, components to make a clone, supplies/spells to survive 120 days in hiding spot, magic items, a phylactery, components to undergo lichedom.

Finally, a lich that has to be killed, its phylactery destroyed, and its clone located within 120 days, or the lich rises yet again . . . with another clone.

In previous editions this was tougher due to the wordings, but 5E seems to make it perfectly viable.

Thoughts?

 

[JoeCrow]

RAW seems to support it, and I can't see any philosophical objection to it. Granted, if one of my players pulled this one off, I'd probably screw with him a bit on the return to living flesh. Forgetting to eat or sleep or bathe, periodic Wisdom saves to avoid flipping out at the inconveniences of biological existence, that kind of thing.

 

[Jaelommiss]

The Forbiddance spell prevents entry, but not exit, of an area by magical means. It covers enough area to affect an entire demiplane.

Demiplane 1: Store spellbook*, arcane focus, clone. Hire cleric to place permanent Forbiddance over demiplane. Now no one can ever enter, including you. Plane shift yourself and the cleric to demiplane 2.

Demiplane 2: Store spellbook*, arcane focus, and phylactery. Cleric places a permanent Forbiddance over this demiplane. Same as before, no one can ever enter this demiplane. Kill cleric if he is not trustworthy.

Demiplane 3: Store multiple copies of your spellbook, materials for lich ascension, materials for clone. This will function as a storage plane. Your main base is elsewhere. Let no one go to or know about this demiplane.

Upon death, respawn at phylactery in Demiplane 2. Using the demiplane spell, access Demiplane 3. Maniacal laugh, followed by eating the souls of peasants.

Upon destruction of Phylactery (not sure how that's possible, but let's just assume it happened), respawn at Demiplane 1 using clone. Travel to Demiplane 3. Create Demiplane 4. Create clone there, store spellbook, arcane focus.. Travel back to Demiplane 3. Ascend to lichdom. Create Demiplane 5 and store Phylactery, spellbook, and arcane focus. Hire another cleric to place permanent Forbiddance spells on Demiplanes 4 and 5. Maniacal laugh, followed by light slaughter of foolish adventurers.

*Make sure you have the Demiplane spell in your spellbooks. Being trapped on a demiplane for eternity is NOT fun.

 

[BigVanVader]

The Clone spell seems like a great villain spell. An evil Necromancer wants to marry the princess and become the Black King. So he just clones her, kills her, then marries her after she wakes up in her cloning pod.

 

[Sir Brennen]

I think the only catch is whether the lich's soul is indeed destroyed with the phylactery. That's going to be up to DM discretion, obviously, but I'd be inclined to rule it is. Tho if you want to set up a reoccurring villain in this matter, then it would just work as the OP describes. I'd still place some limits on this scheme, like you could only have one clone at a time. This would then mean if the lich does transfer to the clone, it'll be four months before he can have another for backup.

Re-lichifying might be a difficult process as well, since the MM mentions liches get that way as a result of bargains made with powerful extra-planar entities, who might not view this clone loop-hole favorably. In fact, I could see part of an adventure where the PCs are in a race against the minions of Orcus (or whoever) to find the now-mortal lich first (for whatever reason).

 

[travathian]

Re-lichifying might be a difficult process as well, since the MM mentions liches get that way as a result of bargains made with powerful extra-planar entities, who might not view this clone loop-hole favorably. In fact, I could see part of an adventure where the PCs are in a race against the minions of Orcus (or whoever) to find the now-mortal lich first (for whatever reason).

Oh, nice catch and could definitely make an interesting plot hook. And even if it isn't a race to find the now mortal lich, maybe a representative of Orcus could approach the PCs with info on where the traitor might be hiding out. Although this:

The Forbiddance spell prevents entry, but not exit, of an area by magical means. It covers enough area to affect an entire demiplane.

Might make some sort of divine intervention necessary.

 

[aramis erak]

I think the only catch is whether the lich's soul is indeed destroyed with the phylactery. That's going to be up to DM discretion, obviously, but I'd be inclined to rule it is.

I agree - destroying the phylactery destroys the soul.

But my reasoning is slightly different.

"The wizard falls dead, then rises as a lich as its soul is drawn into the phylactery, where it forever remains." (MM, 203)

If the item is destroyed, and the soul can then escape, it's not bound to it "forever"... destroying the phylactery doesn't unbind the soul, since it's forever bound. Therefore, it's still bound to the many peices, probably in fractured motes of soul energy.

Note that the unbreakable bond of the soul to the phylactery means the clone never can be inhabited; it may be stretched between a trillion different atoms of the phylactery, but it's still bound to it and unfree. Likewise, unlike several other forms of undead, it can't be raised nor resurrected, because it's NEVER free.

 

[MortalPlague]

Re-lichifying might be a difficult process as well, since the MM mentions liches get that way as a result of bargains made with powerful extra-planar entities, who might not view this clone loop-hole favorably. In fact, I could see part of an adventure where the PCs are in a race against the minions of Orcus (or whoever) to find the now-mortal lich first (for whatever reason).

This right here is reason enough for me to allow this. What an inspired adventure that would be!

 

[Stormonu]

I have a reoccuring villain in my Amberos homebrew world, named Roanoke Major, who's essentially done this.

[sblock]
Roanoke ruled a kingdom and his phylactery was his throne, and he had likewise hidden several clones throughout his kingdom.

Heroes were able to convince his general to turn stag and kill him, dumping Roanoke's soul into the throne. When his kingdom was claimed by another, he took possession of the one who sat upon the throne. However, before he could re-lichify, he was hunted down and thought killed, though his body was never recovered.

Then he showed up a few years later. After that body was destroyed in fire, Roanoke showed up a year or so down the road, once right after the other. That was when those hunting him realized he was using clones. After destroying his latest incarnation, the heroes who had been dealing with him started actively hunting for other possible copies hidden by the wizard.

At one time, there were fifteen Roanokes running around at various power levels. The hero's attempts to hunt down inactive clones instead freed several from statis. Each one claimed to be *the* Roanoke, and it is thought that his soul was somehow actually split between all the active clones to some degree or another, causing many to be mad or to have missing large chunks of memory or skill.

Eventually, the Roanokes were either hunted down or the more powerful ones subsumed the weaker ones. Finally, one remained, and took the title Roanoke Major. Finally ousted from his kingdom, Roanoke Major fled into obscurity. It's thought he has a fortress somewhere in the Ice Mages, where he plots to return and retake his kingdom of the Hawk Lands.
[/sblock]

 

[KarinsDad]

The Forbiddance spell prevents entry, but not exit, of an area by magical means. It covers enough area to affect an entire demiplane.

Demiplane 1: Store spellbook*, arcane focus, clone. Hire cleric to place permanent Forbiddance over demiplane. Now no one can ever enter, including you. Plane shift yourself and the cleric to demiplane 2.

Demiplane 2: Store spellbook*, arcane focus, and phylactery. Cleric places a permanent Forbiddance over this demiplane. Same as before, no one can ever enter this demiplane. Kill cleric if he is not trustworthy.

Demiplane 3: Store multiple copies of your spellbook, materials for lich ascension, materials for clone. This will function as a storage plane. Your main base is elsewhere. Let no one go to or know about this demiplane.

Upon death, respawn at phylactery in Demiplane 2. Using the demiplane spell, access Demiplane 3. Maniacal laugh, followed by eating the souls of peasants.

Upon destruction of Phylactery (not sure how that's possible, but let's just assume it happened), respawn at Demiplane 1 using clone. Travel to Demiplane 3. Create Demiplane 4. Create clone there, store spellbook, arcane focus.. Travel back to Demiplane 3. Ascend to lichdom. Create Demiplane 5 and store Phylactery, spellbook, and arcane focus. Hire another cleric to place permanent Forbiddance spells on Demiplanes 4 and 5. Maniacal laugh, followed by light slaughter of foolish adventurers.

*Make sure you have the Demiplane spell in your spellbooks. Being trapped on a demiplane for eternity is NOT fun.

Forbiddance may or may not prevent the Demiplane spell (i.e. the spell used to create, and travel to and from the demiplane). That could be a problem.

But, the lich has to be able to gain access to its phylactery since it has to be able to feed bodies and souls to its phylactery.


The wizard also does not need the cleric. He could use Wish to cast Forbiddance himself. And duplicating another spell does not incur stress for the Wish spell.

So, if Forbiddance prevents the Demiplane spell from allowing access to the second Demiplane, then the wizard would only want to cast it on the first demiplane (by staying there for 30 days and casting it 30 times before leaving) since it needs occasional access to its phylactery.

Course, this assumes that once trapped on the Demiplane (the door only lasts an hour), the wizard could cast Demiplane to get back out. If he cannot do this (the spell is unclear), then the lich would have to remove the phylactery every time it wanted to feed it and the Forbiddance part of this plan would not work at all.