A new formula for "Epic" gaming

[RedCliff]

The question comes when you combine the two. What's the best way to make an epic-themed campaign that also has incredibly high-lvl characters in it? I struggle with that on a regular basis, and I'm just kind of groping my way towards whatever feels right.

I'm a huge fan of epic stories, but I think the real meaning of the word has become sadly diluted from overuse these days. Every movie is described as epic, though few actually are, for example.

Whenever I try to tell an epic story, I almost invariably start my group at 1st level. Epic stories are about stakes and often the heroic struggle to rise to the challenge, not being amazingly powerful.

The problem with campaigns is that they are difficult to maintain at these levels of greatness. Most epic heroes have one great achievement in their lives, and if you follow the classic structure, often die in their moment of triumph. But even if they don't, the story usually ends with that single epic moment. For example,
Maximus kills the Emperor of Rome at the end of Gladiator, and
Luke defeats the Emperor and redeems his father at the end of the original Star Wars saga. The tales are nearly over at the moments of their greatest triumphs. Life may go on for some after that, but the tale of the epic hero is over with that victory.

There are exceptions, of course, but this level of stakes becomes difficult to maintain. Games risk getting stale or even rediculous if the party is saving the world, the plane, or even the entire cosmos every adventure. But if they're just going back to dungeon hacking then they're not performing epic deeds anymore. They're just regular adventurers with a whole lot more power.

In my experience, epics done right can be some of the most amazing campaigns, and their ends can even border on moving. But anytime I've run a game through to the end of an epic tale, it ends with that final conflict the campaign has been building toward the whole time, and then the characters retire, usually with a little epilogue.

That's not to say you can't use the epic level handbook, but as others have said, just because you're powerful doesn't mean your the protagonist in an epic tale.

A book or article on how to continue on after the first epic tale would be a very interesting project IMO. Something that focused on campaign structure, types of adventures, and other non-mechanical aspects of the game could prove an invaluable companion to both the ELH, and the books Psion mentioned earlier.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

The thing is "Epic Levels" sounds good, even though in practice it often means "overpowered mess".

But I agree that an Epic feel can be generated without incredible powers. That's why I think starting an Epic Level campaign is doomed to fail, since the characters created at Epic levels are much more likely to be a collection of numbers than the living, breathing creations of 2 years of play that characters that have come to be Epic level are.

In other words - work hard at your background and motivations, and by the time you get to Epic level the DM should have enough ideas, and your character should have enough goals that an Epic feel game becomes possible.

In fact, I'd consider that Pkitty's game is not necessarily Epic in feel - because although they are fighting an undead nation, they're doing it through small encounters and site based adventures. No plane hopping (recently), no singlehandedly taking on armies - although it's clearly high level it's not EPIC! THE STUFF THAT VOICE OVER MAN LOVES!

To me, IMHO etc, that campaign will go truly Epic when the characters defeat the undead nation, get back to the surface, look around and say "Some of these governments are wrong. Let's make them right!" or similar.

Hope this provokes some thought and more discussion, I'm enjoying this!

 

[WizarDru]

The question comes when you combine the two. What's the best way to make an epic-themed campaign that also has incredibly high-lvl characters in it? I struggle with that on a regular basis, and I'm just kind of groping my way towards whatever feels right.

Which is, if you don't mind my saying so, darned inconsiderate of you. Some of us were looking to your game for good examples of higher-level play and guidance on how to handle such issues (of which you unintentionally provided many). DMs like me weren't supposed to catch up to you and your group so darned fast. The knowledge that you're groping the dark as much as the rest of us is certainly somewhat sobering. ;p

Seriously, though, I tend to agree that 'epic' is what you want it to be. One could easily argue that my game went to an epic scale by fourth level, when the players began to grasp the breadth of their world, or at 10th level, when they were influencing world-spanning events. It's all relative. Finding that middle-ground between the exciting and the ridiculous is the tightrope that's hard to walk, to me.

 

[Piratecat]

If it makes you guys feel any better, we game tomorrow night - and I think your comments about a less epic feel might be somewhat less relevant.

It's all in the build-up, see...

Anyways, what makes an epic story? My inclination is that it deals with ideas which impact many, many more people than just the heroes. Bringing a new religion to a town isn't epic; bringing it to an empire is. Saving a seaside village isn't epic; stopping the crumbling of an undersea kingdom and the boiling of an ocean (and saving that village in the process) is.

 

[seasong]

WizarDru, I'd say that yours hit epic play around 10th, for the reasons you mentioned. Epic is usually defined as "Surpassing the usual or ordinary, particularly in scope or size" or "Heroic and impressive in quality". The setting was epic from the get go .

For my epic campaigns, I like to take a page from Tolkien: start with a small paradise, tucked far from the main events, and then require the characters to push their way out of their shell and fight for their people and their values. So my setting isn't usually epic from the beginning, but the Hero's Quest is already in place at the start.

Actually, of interest to me on the whole "continuing an epic story after the climax", Beowulf, after his climax, settled into a disappointing kingship and then was eaten by a dragon on his second attempt to be epic again. I thought that kicked ***, although my players might not like that narrative style so much .

 

[WizarDru]

WizarDru, I'd say that yours hit epic play around 10th, for the reasons you mentioned. Epic is usually defined as "Surpassing the usual or ordinary, particularly in scope or size" or "Heroic and impressive in quality". The setting was epic from the get go .

Yeah, well, I guess stopping an invasion from Mechanus, freeing an enslaved village and stopping a clockwork madman count as epic at 10th level.

Actually, of interest to me on the whole "continuing an epic story after the climax", Beowulf, after his climax, settled into a disappointing kingship and then was eaten by a dragon on his second attempt to be epic again. I thought that kicked ***, although my players might not like that narrative style so much .

BWA-HA-HA! I can see it now:

DM: OK, the Fire Wurm approaches.

BEOWULF: I attack!

DM: Make a FORT Save.

BEOWULF: (rolls) No problem, the only way I could fail is on a....one. Dang.

 

[F5]

I'm of the opinion that you can't really do epic, in the classical, legendary, Homeric sense, in an ongoing campaign. Epic is what you strive for when you FINISH an ongoing campaign.

Of the games I've run, the one that felt the most "epic" to me ended with the characters around 5th level. Not high-level by any strech of the imagination, but the character accomplished the nigh-impossible, and thwarted the minions of the Dragon King from summoning him back to the realm of the living.

That's what "epic" feels like, to me. The characters overcome all the odds and manage to accomplish the impossible. I think this is even harder to pull off at "Epic Levels" than it is at lower levels...there's considerably less that's near-impossible for a 34th level archmage/dragon disciple than there is for a 3rd level wizard.

Another factor to making a storyline epic is focus. LoTR was the epic quest to destroy the One Ring. The Odyssey was epic in the scope of what Odysseus had to go through to get home. This is another reason it's tough to be truly epic in an ongoing campaign...most players want more than just one overarching super-goal, they're more interested in multiple, short-term goals. If the players just keep chasing the same Macguffin over and over again, they might lose interest.

Epic-feeling games can be done. I think PC and Sepulchrave capture an epic feel in their story hours. But it's tough.

Longer post than I intended, and bordering on the rant-ish. Sorry about that. I was trying to get my ideas clear, so I just kept writing until it sounded right. I'll stop myself now.

 

[Someone]

Anyways, what makes an epic story? My inclination is that it deals with ideas which impact many, many more people than just the heroes. Bringing a new religion to a town isn't epic; bringing it to an empire is. Saving a seaside village isn't epic; stopping the crumbling of an undersea kingdom and the boiling of an ocean (and saving that village in the process) is.

I more or less agree with PC. Epic feel begins with:

1- Don´t use "a", use "the"

If you kill "a" MultiTemplated Great Wyrm is not the same as if you kill "the" MultiTemplated Great Wyrm. The first has the feel of a dungeon crawl, only bigger. If others did that, or can do, it´s not so epic. If there´s an undetermined number of epic characters, why call them epic, if they are "normal"? The heroes must do impossible things, things forbidden to others but...

2- There´s no way they can do it.

Heroes must face overwhelming odds, and face impossible challenges. At low levels it could be leading a small group of rebels against the tyrannical and huge Empire of A. No way they could have success. At very high levels, the themes have been treated many times: the return of lost loved ones from the dead -or hell-, the quest for immortality, the destruction of all things.

3- Power is not the key.

In truly Epic tales, heroes don´t win in the end because they can cut muntains in half with a sword, but because they are loyal, courageous, noble. Most of the times, they realize they´ll have to sacrifice themselves to reach their goal.

4- All depends on the heroe´s actions.

All will change if the heroes are successful, for good or ill. The heroes action will change the face of the earth in such a way they won´t be able to recognize it. If adventures take place in a single city, the city will change; if they are planar travellers, the entire multiverse will change.

 

[jester47]

I see it like this:

Epic the literary term means: a continuous story covering the achievements of one or more heroic personages.

NOTE: They may or may not cover the formation of a nation, and are oftentimes connected to history.

That definition actually works quite well with the ELH. The ELH is for the people who have characters that reflect this trait and whose experience gain is still at the standard rate.

Seasong and Psion to an extent have the right idea of the true meaning of epic.

Then there is the EPIC meaning huge, exceeding in volume, to borrow from moorcock- Multiversal. The ELH is multiversal. So it breaks down like this:

Levels 1-10 - Terrestrial. That is the characters are pretty much as far as thier own abilities are concerned bound to the world and travel within it. They may take some excursions to other planes, but overall they are confined to one world. They are typically concerned with nations and the well being of the world.

Levels 11-20 - Universal. The characters freely roam the universe. They explore the planes. They may visit various aspects of the prime, etc. Here the players are generally directly involved with gods and powerful outsiders.

Levels 21+ - Metaversal. The characters are involved with the factors that covern how things are run in the universe. This means that they are now almost the equivalent of gods. They deal with the forces in the universe that determine how the universe works. Be it Law and Chaos, Good and Evil, Elemental and Conceptual. Their struggles at these levels are universe defining based in the manipulation of gods, planes, and conceptual elements. A good example of a very powerful metaversal character would be the Lady of Pain from Planescape.

All of which, by strict definintion, can be epic.

Aaron.

 

[takyris]

I think one characteristic of being epic is making the heroes feel more like Gandalf than like Frodo.

For example:

The heroes start at level 1. The world is big and nasty and full of dangers, and over time they establish themselves as heroes. They see that the world is being threatened by some great enemy that wants to destroy the world in order to channel the energy necessary to birth an evil god. The party, growing in power, fights minions, disrupts plans as best they can, but even as they get more powerful, they realize that they're too late.

At last, they're at some level that the DM declares is WAY powerful. In a low-power game, Level 12. In a more powerful game, Levels 16-18. In an epic game, they're in the mid-twenties. The time of recknoning draws closer. The party has done their research. They take their best shot.

They lose.

They manage to stop the process of the dead god getting birthed, but not before the energy is released that will destroy the world. As a last-ditch effort, the party finds an artifact that will take them to "Some other place." They use it in an attempt to flee, as the world crumbles around them. Everything goes dark.

They arrive in the new location.

Same world, 5000 years ago.

While researching the evil enemy creature, they learned that what set its minions on the path to power was the infiltration of the Radiant Empire, which lasted for more than a thousand years and set in place the infrastructure that enabled the forces of the enemy to convert thousands of followers and surreptitiously garner enough power to, thousands of years later, destroy the world despite the best efforts of the party.

The party now knows the stakes. They know what they have to do. They have to use their awesome power to become advisors to the Emperor of the Radiant Empire. They have to decide which menaces to the empire they should fight. They might have to destroy the Radiant Empire and create a new Dark Age, rather than let the enemy use the Empire's resources to its own ends. They have to do all this stuff because they KNOW what's going to happen.

They might even be plagued by a band of young heroes who consider the party to be an shadowy cabal using the Emperor as their catspaw while claiming to be learned advisors -- and the young heroes, in their own way, are correct. The party knows that telling the young heroes will only get them killed. The party is dealing with empires now -- sneaking off in the middle of the night to slay an ARMY of adult red dragons so that the Draconic Armada never reaches the Empire in the first place. Descending into hell to stop the Demon Lord from ever raising an army against the Empire. Working behind the scenes to stop the Empire's greatest general from being as successful as he originally was -- stopping the Empire from growing too quickly, taking too much, becoming too much of a target for the enemy's forces.

History might record them as bad guys. They know that they're saving the world.

I dunno. Epic? Or just really really messed up?

-Tacky