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A Paladin Question

Crimslain

First Post
I need some advice, I currently am playing a Paladin of Clagaddin Silverbeard(Lord of Battle), another pc in the group which I was questing for has become Lawful Neutral, but has recently become a devoted worshipper of Hextor, {and has taken on some kind of template, I think a fiendish one, he sure doesnt look good at all anymore} a lawful Evil god. My DM seems to come across as I should just live with it, since he hasnt done anything harmful to the party yet. I havent played a Paladin for a long time, but am enjoying the challange once again. To me, he might be lawful neutral on the outside, but to worship a LE god, ya gotta be evil on the inside. I dont want there to be any inter-party conflicts, but I just cant ignore what he has done and become. ANyone out there have any suggestions on how to handle this. My desire is to not have him in the party or my character to leave, but I love my Paladin and wont leave, but am I playing lawful stupid if I comfront him and either make him leave by challenging him to a duel, which isnt a good idea, since he is a Fighter with an AC in the mid 40s, although mine is in the lower 40's too. Im currently 12th lvl and I think he just turned 13th lvl. My other friend who is our main cleric also disapproves of his actions in the smae way so I know I would have some backing. Again pls any suggestions would be greatly valued. :(
 

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Fenes 2

First Post
In the PHB is stated that a paladin will not associate with people whose conduct or morals deeply offend him (or something to this effect.). I really cannot see a paladin knowingly adventure for more than one mission with a follower of an evil god. I'd talk to the DM and the other players on how to handle this situation.

IMHO, if I have a paladin in the group I don't allow evil PCs, or PCs whose conduct would cause the paladin to leave, just as I would not allow a paladin as a new character if the group had PCs who would not associate with a paladin.
It is just common courtesy, again imho, not to ruin another players fun in the way the player of the hextor-worshipping PC is doing to you.
 

Belen

Adventurer
You are right on the money. A Paladin could never work with someone who follows and evil deity. In fact, your God could begin to have problems with you, although I'll admit that having stats in the 40s at 12th level is a bit of cheese. It sounds as if the LN player just wanted the Fist of Hextor PrC and to get it he had to worship the evil deity. <sigh> Power gamers....

Ask the GM to switch the God to one that you can handle. After all, he is the GM, so changing the PrC to worship another deity should be fine. That is the best solution. It solves the entire problem.

Dave
 

snwatson

First Post
paladins of non LG gods?

Since you can worship A god if your alignment is withing 1 step of his/hers then it is possible to have paladins of LN gods (such as azuth the FRCS Lord of spells).

So that means it is possible to have a LN fist of hexor right.

ok.. so this means there must be more that 1 'church' of each god a LG type branch of azuth worshipers as well as the more othodox LN types.

So as long as the church he worships is LN he is not EVIL as such. no more than a paladin of a LN is neutral he/she is still good.

so IMHO it a church issue not a which god issue. "how does he/she worship their god"

I hope that made any kind of sence...
 

Valmur_Dwur

First Post
Couple of things

You said devoted how so?

You claim he has a Fiendish template or something that makes him look different?

These 2 things make me think the DM is not very smart:D But I don't know the whole story:rolleyes: Even tho' you could follow Hextor as a LN worshiping the glory of war aspect; I'm more concered with the fiendish template and the worship aspects.

At best hold on for a little while. As a follower of Clangadin you might modify your stance based on the fact that the Dwarven gods don't interfere with those of man unless it involves Dwarves or goes against the Paladin's beliefs. I agree with others that I wouldn't DM it this way but talk to your DM and see if it can be resolved.

ie: The DM should send a messanger from Clangadin to you explaining what has happened. At your level it only makes sense:eek:
 

Crimslain

First Post
The other pc is a dwarf too, and these suggestions sound great, I will send the to my GM Leopold. I want to clarify something someone said earlier. To have an ac in the 40 at 12th lvl isnt hard at all, all it takes is a couple of armor specalizations and/or shield specs. I have full plate +1 and my ac is in the mid 30's.
 

Leopold

NKL4LYFE
All,
As the DM in question many things have not been made known nor will be made know by the 2 players in question to each other as I keep it strictly confidential and making sure what goes on out of the game is not known in game. Yes it's tough, but I know my players can and will try hard to not do it.


The worshiper of hextor (hextor can be worshiped by LE,LN,NE people) has been influenced by a priest of hextor who is a firm believer in stamping out chaos wherever present. Doesn't matter what it is or how nice or naughty it is, anarchy must be destroyed and justice and order must be reigned in, and if need be, forced upon people for their betterment of society and his god.


Template questions: Noone knows, noone will tell, reasons for everything abound and are sorted out here and there. I allow PC's to take templates in lieu of PC classes if there is a reason for it. But noone knows for sure what happened beyond "His skin is now black as coal, his eyes were melted out by black candles and replaced by undulating pools of reddend magma and his teeth are filed to sharklike points." That and his armor is all black and red with symbols of hextor on it. ::Shrug:: such is the way my players are..


Mystery and intrigue and motivations run rampant, and I like to see people think on all sorts of issues. Is he fiendish? Does he radiant evil? Will he eat your babies? Everytime he has been asked this he fevervently denies this and the paladin in question has YET to do a detect evil to clarify and confirm this suspicion.

Communal with his god is allowed but it has yet to happen. I don't do gods unless asked and there is a reason for everything, gods (honestly) could care less unless there is something in it for them or the people that venerate them. Evil gods are more willing to talk while good gods will show signs of things to come. Compare it to the devils and angels in books and it is more common for a devil to speak to you rather than an angel.



He (and therby the entire party) is ASSUMING he is evil and going against him in a hateful "kill him!" manner. I have not stated the alignments of people in anywhere in the game, people know what is going on, just takes some digging to sort it out. The only people that have been vocal to kill him are (suprisingly) the good PC's who just want to slaughter him for no apparent reason irregardless of all the acts of selfless acts bravery, the defense of the party in battle, and the destruction of their enemies and giving up of treasure to see that others remain on this plain. Their only reason is "Well we THINK he's evil and he has an 'evil' gods symbol on his armor so kill him!!!" which is funny as that is the way evil thinks, interesting is it not?


Paladins: Ah god bless 'em, the most difficult (IMHO) to play class as it deals with allot of morality and intritgue on how to play and what to deal with. There is a very strict line I make paladins walk for it is very very easy to sway from grace and lose your abilities. Wheter they associate with Evil people or Chaotic people is up to them, i take it on a god by god basis. If the paladin where a worsiper of heronius then i would have seen much bloodshed occur already. But seeing as how it's a pair of dwarves, both serving gods of battle and war (hextor has knowledge AND war as domains) I don't see there being a big problem with this. As long as both serve their gods in the manner befiting their code of conduct (both PC's are lawful) and follow the dogma of their god (the paladin is good so it's a tad tougher) then what harm is there being done?

Paladins are the shining knights, the templars that sally forth and slay enemies of the church and their god and are examples of purity and holiness but they are only mortal as well. Take sepulchvre's story hour using Edric and see how a paladin behaves. Sure he has faults, sure he isn't the awe-inspring uber solider of his god but he has faith and belief, and follows it with his heart and is in his beliefs in his god and his regard for the people. To me that has to count for something and it does. The paladin in question is seeking a blade and a gauntlet to help the other dwarf reclaim the ancient dwarven kingdom of old. As long as both sides are striving for that selfsame goal and don't sway from their dogma of what their gods decreed for them to do then there is no conflict. Only conflict involved is by other players assuming evil is present and wishing to destroy it without thinking otherwise about the benefits and ignoring everything else.


I follow the rules up until a point where it supress the creative thoughts that need to be expanded and explored. The books are only guides, i don't need them to play really, i can just use a pair of coins to solve everything, but use dice instead. I want morality, purity, religon, self-sacrifice, and other thought provoking notions to go through my players heads. To me that's the whole reason to play is to make you THINK. Sure we can roll dice and play but there is more to this game than that and that's what i strive for in my games.


Damned if ya do, and damned if you don't...such is the way it goes...
 
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Valmur_Dwur

First Post
Ok well now that we know more then we did it is a little clearer:D I still stand by my belief that you are making it hard for the player of the Paladin unduly:rolleyes: However that is for you to decide. As far as Hextor and Heironoeus goes in Greyhawk you had Knights of the Great Kingdom that fought side-by-side to crush the forces aligned against the Great Kingdom. My point to the Paladin player stands let time work it out.

Cheers!
 

Leopold

NKL4LYFE
Valmur_Dwur said:
Ok well now that we know more then we did it is a little clearer:D I still stand by my belief that you are making it hard for the player of the Paladin unduly:rolleyes:


this is true, and yes it's meant to be, morality can be tough and paladins are eeking it out their pores...




As far as Hextor and Heironoeus goes in Greyhawk you had Knights of the Great Kingdom that fought side-by-side to crush the forces aligned against the Great Kingdom.

and gosh darnit all if they weren't of all of different alignments! ;)

My point to the Paladin player stands let time work it out.

Cheers!


i couldn't agree more..
 

Shard O'Glase

First Post
Leopold said:

"His skin is now black as coal, his eyes were melted out by black candles and replaced by undulating pools of reddend magma and his teeth are filed to sharklike points." That and his armor is all black and red with symbols of hextor on it. ::Shrug:: such is the way my players are..



Hmmnn. Lets see if I was playing a paladin. The sequence of events would go like this.

Step 1. Detect evil
step 2 if not evil say I will not assosiate with you vile worshiper of hextor., if radiates evil, beat him down to an inch of his life.
step 3(assumed evil) ask if willing to attone of its evil ways, if not wack dead.

Man your a paladin and your friend comes back like "His skin is now black as coal, his eyes were melted out by black candles and replaced by undulating pools of reddend magma and his teeth are filed to sharklike points. That and his armor is all black and red with symbols of hextor on it." it's time to draw your sword, and get to the truth of the amtter, and smite some evil if necesarry.
 

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