A player with a problem: Death and level loss

[rgard]

Sir, I like the cut of your jib.

Somebody from Pittsburgh says that alot.

 

[prospero63]

Okay, so I have a player whose character, through a series of bad situations, ended up dying. The party used a charge on a Staff of Life to cast resurrection on him. That brings him back to life, but at one level lower.

Well, that's all fine and dandy, but now he's a bit, whiny about losing the level. He'll say things like, "well, it's harder for me to find those traps, because of the lost level," or, "I would cast that spell, but I don't get as many any more." I get the bad feeling that this is going to be an ongoing theme.

So, I was wondering if anyone has an in-game solution for restoring his level. If they can do something, find something, or even make something to restore his level, then I can stop hearing him complain. Any thoughts would be helpful, at this point.

I don't know about in game, but out of game the crew I run with would brutalize someone for being such a crybaby... PC death is a badge of honor.

 

[cthulhu_duck]

So, I was wondering if anyone has an in-game solution for restoring his level. If they can do something, find something, or even make something to restore his level, then I can stop hearing him complain. Any thoughts would be helpful, at this point.

There's two ideas that leap to mind:

1) Temporary negative level. Sticks with the character until they next gain a level. Not removable by magic or any other means. We're using this currently and it's worked well, although I'm not sure what to do with the character who died just before the party gained a level who already had a negative level.

2) Permanent physical stat point loss. -1 on Con, Dex or Str (their choice). I'm looking to discuss something that's more permanent for certain types of death (those requiring more than raise dead/reincarnate for example) or as an player selectable alternative to the temporary negative level.

(Edit: correction on the details of the problem character in idea #1)

 

[FireLance]

I think you said something important. You can ask the playerS. If none of them want the level loss, it adds nothing. However, taking away the level loss from the character that died reduces the victory for all the others. "I was brilliant and managed to survive. He played poorly and died. Yet there's no difference between us?"

While you obviously believe in what you said, not everyone approaches D&D as a competition between the players to score individual victories or to see whose characters manage to survive. Some do approach it as a team sport, and for such players, the idea that removing the level loss from a raised character reduces the victory for them is as alien as a the idea that a basketball (or football, or soccer) player who suffered an injury during one game and had to leave the field, but managed to recover and return at full health for the next, somehow lessens the victory for the other players.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I instituted a houserule, or, more accurately, I appropriated a rule from Spycraft, in regards to the Drained condition - during downtime (between adventures, long, boring stretches of travel during adventures, the months spent besieging a castle, etc.) the character makes a Fortitude save against a DC equal to 10 + (lost level x 0.5). If successful the PC regains one lost level. Under this rule a lost level takes the form of a general malaise, of being off your peak. Even without the use of magic you do eventually recover.

If you gain a level between the loss and recovering from it then you increase the character XP by the difference. (So if Bob needed 3000 XP to regain the level by experience and did, then made his Fort. save then he would gain 3000 XP on top of those he earned, which might be enough to push him up another level if it happened late in the level.) While this rule has been agreed upon it has yet to see actual use, the only two Drained characters recovered before gaining another level.

The Auld Grump

 

[roguerouge]

Okay, so I have a player whose character, through a series of bad situations, ended up dying....

Well, that's all fine and dandy, but now he's a bit, whiny about losing the level. He'll say things like, "well, it's harder for me to find those traps, because of the lost level," or, "I would cast that spell, but I don't get as many any more." I get the bad feeling that this is going to be an ongoing theme....

He's being bitchy about it, which suggests more of a problem with this mysterious series of bad situations than with the mechanic and that it's either directed towards the players that let him down, himself through bad self-esteem, or you for creating an unfair situation, in this person's mind . The fact that you're not just saying, "Okay, back in character everyone..." indicates to me that you may be feeling attacked or guilty. How about telling us about these bad situations? 'Cause if it's bitchiness directed towards the players or bad self esteem, bribing him with an altered mechanic's going to lead to more trouble down the line.

 

[Gryffyn]

Just take raise dead and resurrection out of your game. That'll remove the associated level loss completely, and perhaps instill some sense of perspective in the fellow.

I find that people who whine about something like this tend to whine when other things don't go their way (poor hit point rolls, poor rolls in general, or even just poor tactics on their part) and are not much fun to game with in general.

 

[Ipissimus]

Problem is, the guy's got a legitimate beef. Yeah, it's fine and all to say 'just suck it up' but like a lot of people are saying it's a game. A game is supposed to be fun for all participants. And losing that level to death frankly blows, especially in 3E and particularly if you've only got the minimum number of players.

The party relies on a number of skills to be at full strength to remain effective. If the Rogue's not detecting traps as well, the whole party's got to suck that down. If the Cleric can't cast restoration, and the adventure assumes she can, the whole party has to suck it up. It's not fair on the party and it's not fair on the poor guy that they all have to take it because of a bit of bad luck. And seriously, is it worth the aggravation?

My group agreed to not use level loss as a punishment for death. It causes a lot of headaches and does little for the game. Death already comes with an in-built punishment already; as long as you're dead you're not participating and the party can't use your skill set. I personally don't see a reason for punishing a player further just because the dice didn't go his way.

That being said, if you still want the level loss, yes, I would give some way out of it. I like Piratecat's suggestion.

 

[roguerouge]

Well, that's all fine and dandy, but now he's a bit, whiny about losing the level. He'll say things like, "well, it's harder for me to find those traps, because of the lost level," or, "I would cast that spell, but I don't get as many any more." I get the bad feeling that this is going to be an ongoing theme.

This is not possible to lose both rogue and spellcaster abilities unless he lost a level of Arcane Trickster. Still... some of his skills are one point less than he's used to and he didn't lose access to an entire spell level, but he does have a few less spells to cast.

That's not a big loss at all. It's merely an annoyance, especially since he belongs to a party at a level to have access to a staff with resurrection.

 

[Creeping Death]

It also depends on the penalty. Did you give him normal penalty (level loss), double penalize him, or triple penalize him?

Double penalty: Near the end of the session, pc dies. Ok, you all killed 10K xp worth of creatures, normally divide by four, each player gets 2500 xp, but since 1 player died, you all get 3333, dead player gets none. Now dead player gets resurrected, but 1 level lower. Hmm... three of the players advance to next level, you lose a level, now there is a 2 level difference.

Triple penalty: Near the beginning of the sesson, pc dies. Due to story reasons, PC does not get resurrected until end of session. Rest the same as double penalty. Player just gets to sit around for a while doing nothing.

So how did it go down? How do most people do this?