A query: Harm House rule users ONLY please

[Dash Dannigan]

Well, shucks folks, I don't like to do this but I couldn't post since the Harm thread is closed. I was thinking of splitting Harm the same way the Hold and Charm spells were split. Giving us Harm Person and Harm Monster. Leaving Harm Person a 6th level spell and Harm Monster an 8th level spell.

Please, DMs may only reply. I'm not looking for a debate on the Harm spell in general, just some friendly opinions from experienced DMs on what they think about this Harm provision. I hadn't seen this suggestion anywhere yet, but perhaps someone has done something similar and if so I would like to hear about it.

I think the split into person and monster alleviates some of the problems for monsters as they tend to not have as flexible means of countering a well-placed Harm spell as do persons. This way when Harm is placed upon a monster it will be of higher level and will have a greater chance of resisting such an attack. In theory.

Thanks! And please, Harm House rule users only. This thread is not about the debate for house rule or not. Just remarks and advice please.

Noy, I know I'm really asking for it *Dash cringes as he peaks from behind his fragile piece of cover waiting for the delayed fireball to go off*

 

[FlimFlam]

Shouldn't this be in House Rules forum then?

 

[Dash Dannigan]

Crap, right. It should be. May ask a very helpful moderator to assist me with a small relocation effort?

 

[AuraSeer]

IMO splitting the spell in that manner doesn't do much. A Brb20 can have upwards of 200 hit points, and he's still meat for your 6th-level Harm Person.

If you want two levels of power, maybe you could divide it into Lesser Harm and Greater Harm. The lesser version would still be at 6th level, but would have an effect cap; say only N hp/level, or only works on monsters up to N hit dice, or whatever. The greater spell would be 8th or 9th level, and have a much higher cap.

 

[Dash Dannigan]

Thanks for the suggestion Auraseer. A HP cap effectively limits the power of the Harm spell I agree. But I'm looking more for a balance than a limitation. I think a Brbn 20 will have the equipment to help him counter the damage a Harm spell will do to him and understands the threat a cleric can be and will likely have a readied action in case he is hit. That being said being said I do think a HP cap would also be in order, though I prefer to keep monster and person separate still, thanks! With the Second Harm Monster spell (being applicable to both persons and monsters) doing greater damage.

Aura You mentioned N HP/lvl. I prefer a diceless damage method also. Quicker that way. What do you use? Say maybe around 10 HP/lvl (an initial cap of 110 HP at 11th lvl) and say 15 HP/lv (an intial cap of 225 at 15th lvl). Hmm, interesting. I'll have to play around with this.

 

[Ratama]

Hmm...

Personally, I don't even like the Monster/Person descriptors on the Hold and Charm spells; seems a bit 'videogame'ish' to me.

Couple questions:

1. Is this a game balance or flavor based change (sounded like it was balance)? Like I mentioned above, I hate the whole 'Monster'/'Person' thing. If I was playing in your game, that would definitely be a change I would not appreciate, regardless of what minor balance effects it would have.

2. Are you making the same change to other spells? Like Heal Monster/Person, Polymorph Monster/Person, Disintegrate Monster/Person? Try imagining the same change made to other spells, and think about how ridiculous it is; I would try using HD/Level based caps, if I wanted more artificial limitations.

In summary: if you have a serious problem with Harm (I know I nerfed it IMC), then you should seriously nerf it w/o adding more artificial flavor to your game (give it a save for half damage or Inflict Critical Wounds damage, for an easy fix).

 

[Psion]

Re: Hmm...

2. Are you making the same change to other spells? Like Heal Monster/Person, Polymorph Monster/Person, Disintegrate Monster/Person? Try imagining the same change made to other spells, and think about how ridiculous it is; I would try using HD/Level based caps, if I wanted more artificial limitations.

I dunno... from a flavor standpoint, that could be pretty cool. Imagine a mythology like that of the book of the righteous, where monstrous races are the children of Lilith and Asmodeus... perhaps "monsters" might be magical beings who have entirely different properties when it comes to magic.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Harm is more powerful than Otto's Irresistable Dance - neither allow a save, but the Dance doesn't nearly kill you.

I've made it similar to Slay Living, but it deals 10d6 damage on a successful Will save. I may switch all of the Inflict/Harm spells to Fort save, though; it makes more sense to me. Then again, the necro needs some way of hurting the fighter

 

[Elocin]

What our group did to house rule Harm was to make it a Will save, just like all the Inflict Wounds spells. If the thing makes his save, cut the current HP in half. If the person fails his save roll a d4 to see how many Hp the thing has left. Seems to work well for our group. As it has always been, normal SR still applies.

Hopefully this helps as well.

 

[the Jester]

What our group did to house rule Harm was to make it a Will save, just like all the Inflict Wounds spells. If the thing makes his save, cut the current HP in half. If the person fails his save roll a d4 to see how many Hp the thing has left. Seems to work well for our group. As it has always been, normal SR still applies.

Hopefully this helps as well.

I do something very similar imc- a failed save results in the damage dealt by an inflict critical wounds.