A question about grab/other mechanics

[tobiasosir]

Hello1

Please bear with me, as I'm completely new to D&D (a total of 3 sessions under my belt, plus lots of reading), so I may be missing something simple here.

My character is a first level fighter who uses a longspear. Her background: she was once part of a group of vampire slayers, and very good at it--but on her latest encounter, she was bitten just as she killed the vampire. She hasn't turned, but was left with a strong aversion to sunlight. Her boss also fired her, thinking she was now a liability. This was a background created by the DM (who built our characters, but is allowing us to change things if we want).

I've built up the back story a bit more and have grown to really like the character. She's started to get a bit creepy, running around in a heavy cloak whenever it's day, sulking sharpening her spear, generally refusing to talk about her past, desperate to save others from evil, etc. Now I want to take it further.

We're going to be getting to level two soon, so I'm trying to plan ahead as to what feat I'll be taking, and there's one that particularly appeals to me for flavor reasons: vampiric heritage. It fits perfectly with the back story--she is more 'tainted' than she thought, and is slowly gaining more vampiric traits, but struggles against them.

Anyway, this is all well and good, and it gives me a cool--and very creepy--power to use, Blood Drain. The power says that you can inflict damage on a grabbed target, then spend a healing surge on a hit.

But here's the thing: you must have a target grabbed. As I understand it, grab is a standard action, as is this power. So, am I right in thinking that I need to forgo an attack one round, grab a target, then wait until my next turn (during which the target might escape) to use the power? Two turns to use one healing surge seems a bit clunky to me.
Of course, i could grab, use an action point, then use Blood Drain--but then I'm always using an action point to use Blood Drain, and I don't think I'd end up using it very often (in which case I may just want a different feat).
There's also a brawling fighter first level power that grabs, but requires a free hand. Since the longspear is a two handed weapon, this doesn't apply...or can I say I've just let go with one hand (I'm guessing that's a minor), then use the power?

Is there a power or an other way I can grab using a minor action, to perform both in the same turn? One thing I found while searching is the 'grasping weapon' magic item, though having my DM grant me that just for flavor reasons seems unfair to me--nobody else has magic weapons yet, and I don't think it's fair for me to dictate which ones go out when we do get them.

What do you think? Is there a way to make this work without ending up spending action points and non-attack standard actions all over the place just to satisfy a cool background story?
T

 

[Dausuul]

Just combed through the Compendium, and I'm not seeing much. The Brawling Fighter powers are ideal for grabbing, of course, but as you say it requires a hand free; you can always take one hand off your longspear, but then you can't use the longspear, which sorta defeats the point. There's a barbarian power, Rage of the Blood Bear, which would help, but it's a daily power, which a) means you could only use it once a day and b) means you can't get it via multiclass for several levels yet.

My suggestion: Go with the Brawling Fighter approach, and pick up Quick Draw and a trident (or other one-handed spear). Then you can switch out easily between your longspear for reach attacks and your trident for when you want to grab and bite, and your Weapon Focus, Expertise, and so forth will work for both weapons.

Alternatively, wait until you can get your hands on a grasping longspear. (Or better yet, a grasping greatspear and Superior Weapon Proficiency.)

 

[FreeXenon]

...what Dausuul said

First, welcome to ENWorld and to D&D! Yea!

Pretty much what Dausuul said. You may want to retrain one of your first level at-will or encounter powers for a Brawling fighter power which gives you a grab, and then shift your weapon to a one handed weapon, and perhaps a shield you can drop at will, or as he suggested move from 2-handed weapon to one handed in battle.

Sounds like a fun character...
Good luck!

 

[tobiasosir]

Hmm...I like the idea of picking up a shorter spear/trident and switching with quick draw. Just to clarify, quick draw allows me to switch weapons as part of the attack action (i.e. not using a minor action first)?
A trident would be cool; I actually just bought a few daggers so I'd have a ranged attack, and this would give me a more versatile option. The character's fighting style as I'm playing it really revolves around spears, so it would fit better than daggers anyway--best of both worlds!


One of my first level feats (I'm human) was for a multiclass rogue, but I'm not seeing much use for it because those powers require a light blade or sling, meaning I'd have to switch in battle anyway. I could retrain that at level 2 for quick draw and still pick up vampiric heritage.

I'll have to look at the brawler powers; is there a utility I could find that grabs? Retraining an at will would be preferable, though. If i were to retrain that instead, as you mention, I'd have to take my hand off the spear (minor action), meaning I can't use it...which means I'd be basically using the brawler at will with an unarmed strike, yes?

So, picking up the quick draw feat, vampiric heritage feat, and a brawling at will seems like a formidable combination, but would have to wait another level at least. Until then, it looks like using an action point each time I use blood drain is the best...or waiting a turn and hoping they don't escape the grab. (Which I could actually explain in character; she hates that this has happened to her, and probably doesn't like using a power that requires her to drink an enemy's blood...but that kind of internal conflict is a roleplaying goldmine!)

Speaking of roleplaying, here's a thought to explain the quick draw/shorter spear idea: what if the longspear I use can be divided in two, so I can use the bottom end as a shorter spear (think dagger hidden in the pommel of a sword). Does that work?

 

[FreeXenon]

Short Spear in Long Spear... talk to your DM. That sounds more than reasonable.

Quick Draw - correct

On a quick look I did not see any utility powers that gave a grab. =(

The at-will, Grappling Strike, uses the weapon damage and prof, but you gain the grab as a side-affect of the power. It also has a really neat bonus to use this power as a basic attack for Opportunity attacks... if you are a brawler... =) Good deal if your are going to go grab crazy...

Depending on how much use you want to make of the Blood Drain and the vampiric stuff you may want to switch to a Brawling Fighter Build if your DM is kosher with it. You will have to decide if that works for your character concept.

 

[tobiasosir]

I don't know what the character's build is...to be honest, I'm not sure there is a specific build (I thought those were more guidelines/suggestions?). I do know that I don't have any grab type powers, so I'm guessing I'm a different build. I don't know if I'd want to change...I like using the two handed longspear, and a brawler would mean largely not using it. I'll look into some of the powers in the CB, and see what's there.
A brawler might work with the character concept if not for the longspear. She's bitter about what happened to her, has always been a loner, has family issues and is generalyl vicious--though always looks out for those in need. I could see her bashing the hell out of someone if it suited her.
The grapling strike sounds like what I'm looking for, though using the blood drain right after would still mean an action point. Which makes me wonder why blood drain is a standard action; it seems like unless you have the perfect set up, it's not intended to use until the next round, by which time the opponent may be out of the grab. Maybe it's a balance thing and I shouldn't be thinking of ways around it.

How difficult is it to escape a grab? I can't remember what my fort and reflect are off the top of my head, but they're decent. Maybe the easiest solution for me is to find a way to make escaping a grab more difficult?

 

[FreeXenon]

Bash an Pinion is a level 1 encounter that give a grab attempt too.

Escape is either acrobatics vs reflex or athletics vs fort.

There is a feat Inescapable Hold which will force the check to be against fort even if they are using acrobatics, so that may help you maintain your hold.

When I said build I really meant the Fighter Talent you choose:

* Arena
* one-handed
* brawler
* etc

There are six to choose from which give you certain circumstantial benefits that work with a specific style of fighting. Yea, you will have to see which style works best with what you want to accomplish with her. The Brawler style might not come in to play enough for you for it to be interesting.

You will want to also check on the feats available to work with grabbing attacks to...

Good luck!

If you get a chance to play with you character in this mode please let us know how it went and what you thought about it. =)

 

[tobiasosir]

Ah yes, the fighter talent I have is two handed weapon. I'll look at the brawling talent, but I like my two handed weapons, and I'm not sure i want to concentrate on always having a hand free. You're right in that i don't think the brawler style will come into effect very often, only when I'm using blood drain. And from a character point of view, I love the idea that she only grabs opponents when she's going to bite them--makes it a bit shocking.
I like the idea of using quick draw and a one handed weapon, then switching back to the longspear, though, so I might try to make that work.

The Inescapable hold feat sounds very useful; my fort if i remember is pretty good, so that would be helpful.

At any rate, it looks like there are lots of options, but that it could get complicated. I think I'm going to start simple--just the vampiric heritage feat and retraining to get a grab/attack power. This way I can sheathe my spear as a minor, attack/grab on a standard, get an action point, and use blood drain as another standard. Next turn, minor to pick up spear, and away we go. This is a bit clunky, but from a character point of view, this new power of mine is new to me, and I don't understand what's happening. Maybe I'm also a bit frightened of it because I'm turning into that thing I used to kill for a living, so using it makes me uncomfortable. By the time I'm at the next level, I'm more used to it, and so it becomes easier to use.

Next level after that, I retrain the mc feat to quick draw, and somehow fashion a 'spear within a spear.'

 

[bbjore]

You might want to ask you GM if he'll allow you to use Grappling Strike or some Fighter Encounter powers that require a free hand, if you let go of your longspear with one hand (free action), and then make the attack with an improvised weapon, unarmed attack, or an attack with a spiked gauntlet. There are even some cheap items that allow you to make unarmed attacks as though you were armed with a club. If you're not using inherent bonuses, this doesn't scale very well, but at higher levels you can use a grasping spear, some nice rogue encounter (stab and grab) or dailies (garrote grip) that allow a grab with an attack (just draw a shortsword for a round), or the fighter's level 10 utility bodyshield, which would just require you to free a hand at the end of your turn and wait for someone to attack you.

If you're keen on grabbing a lot, the brawling fighter is the way to go, but the above options don't require as much investment, which is nice since what you want to do is just a once an encounter trick. Since you really seem to have taken what your DM has given you and run with it, I'd be willing to guess that he'd want to encourage your idea as well, so talk with him, and see if he'd has some ideas to help you out. He may even allow a stab and grab with your longspear for half damage or something just because it's cool.

 

[tobiasosir]

Ah, i seem to have misunderstood something...please bear with me as I work this out.

I got to my character Builder, and toyed around with leveling up. If I take the vampiric heritage feat and retrain an existing power with one that lets me grab as part of an attack, I would be good to go.
but, these powers have as a requirement that I have a hand free. I had planned on using a minor action to drop a hand off the longspear--but I'm realizing now that this would render the attack useless, because I can't use one hand with a two handed weapon. Which is where Dausuul's suggestion for quick draw comes into effect.

The problem is, I can't take two feats and retrain at the next level. So I'm left with vampiric heritage and a grab/attack power that I can't really use, and doing a grab as a standard action...or quick draw and a grab/power attack that I can use, and waiting for the vampiric heritage feat as the next level (when I could retrain the multiclass feat I won't be using). Am I on the right page?