Pathfinder 1E A question about Pathfinder's casters.

[Foundry of Decay]

This is just a quick question. I tend to play 4e for the most part, but was actually intrigued about Pathfinder after seeing the fighter preview. I saw a few things that were quite improved in the preview from raw 3.x system rules, however I'm curious most of all about the magic system.

Does Pathfinder use the raw Vancian system? Its the one thing that I'd never wish to go back to as it was written in 3.5. I won't go into arguments for or against such a system as it simply doesn't work for myself and my group.

However I was informed that there have been some changes to the system in Pathfinder. The big one being that mages/clerics/magic-using-classes would have a sort of 'at will' they could do each round? One of my biggest problems with the 3.x magic system was the mages/casters resorting to crossbows and other mundane things to attack enemies with instead of using what they were trained for: Magic.

I haven't kept up with Pathfinder, I admit. 4e pretty much solved almost all of the problems personally had with the older system, but it doesn't mean I can't be interested in both.

So, how has the magic/casting system been changed significantly?

 

[Kunimatyu]

Pathfinder adds at-will cantrips and some spell-like abilities to casters, but Vancian magic survives.

(strictly speaking though, isn't 4e's entire system Vancian in nature?)

 

[Kunimatyu]

double post

 

[El Mahdi]

I obviously haven't seen the final version yet, but the Beta still basically had the original vancian model that 3E used. I don't think they've changed that much between the Beta and the final though.

However, there's another 3pp product coming out around the same time as Pathfinder, called Trailblazer, that's supposed to be compatible with both 3E and Pathfinder, and uses the SRD spells but has an at-will/encounter/rituals mechanic for using them. The previews so far have looked really promising (I intend on buying both Pathfinder and Trailblazer when they come out). There's a free preview for download on RPGNow, and some good threads here at ENWorld (although I can't find them at the moment - when I find the links I'll edit and add them).

As for the changes in Pathfinder compared to 3E, along with what Kunimatyu said, I believe they tried eliminating a lot of the "save or die" effects from spells - along with a lot of other small changes here and there.

 

[dm4hire]

Vancian is still in unfortunately, however they added in more access (at least in the beta they did) to spells or spell like abilities. Sorcerers get bloodline abilities which gives them extras, including an at-will attack, to make them stand a part from wizards. Wizards gain a school power and more spells if they do choose a specific school, which can become pretty brutal. As listed in the beta "2nd Level: The wizard can cast any first level spell from his chosen school. This spell is prepared once per day for every two caster levels he possesses." That's in addition to what he normally casts for the day and there are other things beyond that level that schools add.

Wizards become pretty powerful and don't have to worry about running out of spells as much any more. The key draw back is that you have to pick a school to get these benefits, which seems okay, but the wizard can easily find himself not having the proper spell and casting from an opposed school is bad.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

"Just as a casual observation, anyone who considers the presence of Vancian magic a dealbreaker is probably lost to us, and I'm okay with that. Personally, I view the pulp fantasy roots of the game as a feature and not a flaw, and I'm glad that there is an edition of the game for people who don't, because that is not a version of the game I am very interested in publishing."

Basically, the Pathfinder crew's view is that Vancian magic is one of the most important features of Dungeons and Dragons. I can't find a quote, but I seem to recall reading James Jacobs' comments on alternative spellcasting systems in 3.5 as being "interesting, but not D&D".

Personally, I find it strange that despite the importance of Vancian casting to the Pathfinder developers they have decided to grant more at-will magical abilities. I don't quite understand why Fourth Edition's at-will/encounter/daily treatment of spells isn't Vancian and Pathfinder's at-will/x per day/daily treatment is. Maybe it's because Pathinder's at-will abilities aren't named for existing spells (even if they are similar, such as the spell Mage Hand and the at-will Hand of the Apprentice Universal school power) and Fourth Edition's are (such as the at-will Mage Hand power not being named something different and alternatively castable as as a daily spell)? Maybe it's okay to have at-will magical abilities as long as you don't call them spells? Does that mean that Fourth Edition's casting would have been Vancian had at-will and encounter powers been called "spell-like abilities" instead of spells?

I'm a newcomer to RPGs in general (started playing in 2005), and while I acknowledge the history of Vancian magic in D&D I find it odd that the game uses one particular system of magic based on one particular author's writings, especially since from what I gather the Dying Earth series' setting is quite different from your standard fantasy setting.

I know when I first learned about Third Edition D&D's system of casting I found it odd, although I've grown to like the idea of preparing spells in advance and triggering them later by performing the last bit of the spell. I also don't feel that having Encounter spells invalidates this system of magic; it just means that less potent spells don't take nearly as long to prepare as more powerful ones.

I've since learned that pre-3E's magic system consisted of spellcasters learning spells, "firing and forgetting", and re-learning the same spell everyday. I had never previously heard of magic working in such a way in fantasy media, and even now the idea of it is alien to how I had always imagined magic to function.

 

[Umbran]

(strictly speaking though, isn't 4e's entire system Vancian in nature?)

This is an aside to the OP's question, but my answer is no. At least, not in my opinion.

Folks seem to think "limited number of times per day" = "Vancian". But there's more to a Vancian system than that. You will note that a great many monster powers in prior editions are "X # times per day", but until recently, nobody ever referred to them as Vancian. Most classes have had powers that were usable some number of times per day, and those weren't called Vancian, either. Only the spell system has been referred to as Vancian.

In Vancian magic, you typically have a longish list of spells you may cast, you pick some of each level, and prepare those for the day. The choice and preparation are rather key - it is the heart of what was taken from Vance's fiction. In 4e, your choices do not change from day to day. The powers you have are the powers you have, and they don't change from one day to the next. You may be able to retrain powers as you go up in level, but that's not nearly the same thing.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

In 4e, your choices do not change from day to day. The powers you have are the powers you have, and they don't change from one day to the next. You may be able to retrain powers as you go up in level, but that's not nearly the same thing.

4E Wizards do have multiple daily powers that they can choose from. The basic Wizard starts with two at 1st Level and can only choose one of them to prepare. At each level that other classes would learn one Daily Power the Wizard gains two. Taking the Expanded Spellbook feat increases that number to three and also allows the character to learn one Daily Power of every level he had attained before taking the feat. A Deva Wizard can also take the Remembered Wizardry feat, which, along with the Expanded Spellbook feat, increases the number of Daily Powers earned from three to four, as well as granting an additional Daily and Utility power for every level the Deva Wizard had attained before taking the feat.

So, contrary to your claim, a Fourth Edition Wizard can come to possess quite a number of spells to choose from per day.

I'd just like to take a moment to clarify that I am not a 4E fanatic; I generally prefer much of the mechanics and design goals to 3E, but I've become dissatisfied with the game overall to the point that I have decided to no longer buy more 4E material. Instead, I've taken to mining the mechanics I do like and working my own homebrew system.

 

[Cadfan]

4E Wizards do have multiple daily powers that they can choose from. The basic Wizard starts with two at 1st Level and can only choose one of them to prepare. At each level that other classes would learn one Daily Power the Wizard gains two. Taking the Expanded Spellbook feat increases that number to three and also allows the character to learn one Daily Power of every level he had attained before taking the feat. A Deva Wizard can also take the Remembered Wizardry feat, which, along with the Expanded Spellbook feat, increases the number of Daily Powers earned from three to four, as well as granting an additional Daily and Utility power for every level the Deva Wizard had attained before taking the feat.

So, contrary to your claim, a Fourth Edition Wizard can come to possess quite a number of spells to choose from per day.

I'd just like to take a moment to clarify that I am not a 4E fanatic; I generally prefer much of the mechanics and design goals to 3E, but I've become dissatisfied with the game overall to the point that I have decided to no longer buy more 4E material. Instead, I've taken to mining the mechanics I do like and working my own homebrew system.

... its not really the same.

For the record, I hate and loathe vancian magic and wish it would die in a ditch. But there is a difference between 4e's method of handling wizard spells and vancian magic. It mostly relates to how spells are learned- in 4e, your wizard knows a particular spell. In a vancian system, he doesn't "know" any spells at all, he just has a book or a scroll or something where the spell is written down. He prepares his spells from those books and scrolls, and each spell, once prepared, is like a buzzing potential *thing* whirling around in his head until he decides to let it out. Once its out, its gone.

4e follows more of a "stamina" model of magic, where you know how to manipulate magical energies in particular ways, but you can only do so every so often. You can do easy things all the time, harder things somewhat frequently, and big things only rarely. Its not a complete stamina model, but that's the closest match I can think of.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

4E Wizards do have multiple daily powers that they can choose from. The basic Wizard starts with two at 1st Level and can only choose one of them to prepare. At each level that other classes would learn one Daily Power the Wizard gains two. Taking the Expanded Spellbook feat increases that number to three and also allows the character to learn one Daily Power of every level he had attained before taking the feat. A Deva Wizard can also take the Remembered Wizardry feat, which, along with the Expanded Spellbook feat, increases the number of Daily Powers earned from three to four, as well as granting an additional Daily and Utility power for every level the Deva Wizard had attained before taking the feat.

So, contrary to your claim, a Fourth Edition Wizard can come to possess quite a number of spells to choose from per day.

I'd just like to take a moment to clarify that I am not a 4E fanatic; I generally prefer much of the mechanics and design goals to 3E, but I've become dissatisfied with the game overall to the point that I have decided to no longer buy more 4E material. Instead, I've taken to mining the mechanics I do like and working my own homebrew system.

Well, the Wizard is the only one with such a mechanic at the moment. He certainly still has the most Vancian trappings.
But even he can't expand his spell list indefinitely. He gets a choice between two utility or dailies per level. With a feat, it might become 3. But a 3E Wizard, Druid or Cleric can learn a theoretical infinite number of spells, but he must choose which spells each day, and he has a limited number of slots per day.

I think a major regard here might also be how much of a characters power are dependent on daily resources. At least in 3.x, a spellcaster is basically forced to expend his daily resources if he wants to contribute at all. They are the majority - if not all - of his "firepower".
4E characters can go without daily powers. They will use them in really tough combats, but they never need to touch their dailies in regular encounters.

---

To the actual topic. The basic spellsystem of learning, preparation and memorizing is still there. There were some class-specific changes, many classes getting at-will or at least "very-often per day" minor powers like cantrips or at-will magic missile equivalents.

Thinking about it, I wonder how the playtest for that worked out for non-experienced players. For a long-time 3.x player, I think changes like these are great, because they provide something fresh. But a newbie might find handling his spell list management combined with spells or spell-like abilities not in the same spell slot subsystem overwhelming. (Not that spellcasters ever were considered "newbie"-friendly.)