D&D 5E A question about Sneak Attack

neogod22

Explorer
I have a question, and am looking for the opinion of fellow DMs. Should Characters using sneak attack be able to do nonlethal damage? I know the rules say yes to melee attacks, because they are as simple as possible, but when you look at how a rogue fights. They hide in the shadows and strike when the target least expects it. Even in combat when they are not hiding, they attack distracted foes and and strike vital areas (hence the sneak dice). In my opinion, you can't stab someone in the heart and say, I'm hitting them with the back of the dagger. What do you guys think?

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Xaelvaen

Stuck in the 90s
Well, this thread said [5E] in the title, but there is no nonlethal in 5E - if you strike the 'death blow' on a target, you can choose to leave them unconscious instead. In that regard, I do allow rogues with sneak attack to knock people out, just like classic movies where the guy sneaks up behind the other guy and pistol whips him upside the back of the head. Actually works quite well. As far as systems that track non-lethal damage, I really don't have much of an opinion there. I typically ignore those rules for something more like 5E's approach.
 


neogod22

Explorer
Well, this thread said [5E] in the title, but there is no nonlethal in 5E - if you strike the 'death blow' on a target, you can choose to leave them unconscious instead. In that regard, I do allow rogues with sneak attack to knock people out, just like classic movies where the guy sneaks up behind the other guy and pistol whips him upside the back of the head. Actually works quite well. As far as systems that track non-lethal damage, I really don't have much of an opinion there. I typically ignore those rules for something more like 5E's approach.
Well I feel like this, pistol whipping someone to knock them out isn't the same as beating someone to death with night stick. I understand nonlethal damge isn't a thing per se, but choosing to not kill someone when delivering the killing blow is kind of the definition of nonlethal damage. And again, rogues don't fight like warriors, where it's straight up weapon and attribute damage. A fighter choosing to hit someone with the broad side of his sword and do the same damage as him slashing is understandable, but a rogue trying to use sneak dice to do the same thing is not. The simplified rules create holes, like for another example, you can't choose to not kill someone with a ranged or thrown attack, but if someone wanted to keep someone alive, could aim for non-vital areas like a leg or arm. Or they can shoot them with a practice arrow.

The reason I asked for the opinion of other DMs, is because as a DM we are allow to change the rules, or circumstances of an action, a player is not; and I like to do that. If something doesn't make sense in the rules, or for a situation, I won't hesitate to change it.

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neogod22

Explorer
I'm not saying a rogue is not allowed to not try and kill someone, but when not knowing someone's HP, they have to be mindful and choose when to use sneak dice, and when not to.

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Xaelvaen

Stuck in the 90s
Well I feel like this, pistol whipping someone to knock them out isn't the same as beating someone to death with night stick. I understand nonlethal damge isn't a thing per se, but choosing to not kill someone when delivering the killing blow is kind of the definition of nonlethal damage. And again, rogues don't fight like warriors, where it's straight up weapon and attribute damage. A fighter choosing to hit someone with the broad side of his sword and do the same damage as him slashing is understandable, but a rogue trying to use sneak dice to do the same thing is not. The simplified rules create holes, like for another example, you can't choose to not kill someone with a ranged or thrown attack, but if someone wanted to keep someone alive, could aim for non-vital areas like a leg or arm. Or they can shoot them with a practice arrow.

The reason I asked for the opinion of other DMs, is because as a DM we are allow to change the rules, or circumstances of an action, a player is not; and I like to do that. If something doesn't make sense in the rules, or for a situation, I won't hesitate to change it.

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Absolutely - you should customize these rules for your players and your own desires. In fact, you mentioning the ranged attack thing - that's a rule I've ignored for so long I had completely forgotten about it haha. Just like you said, if my players want to take someone alive, I have no problem with the archer doing it with a well-aimed shot to a non-vital area.

A rule I use with my older game group (I've had it since the early 90s), is that to 'pull your punch' you have to declare it before the attack, and depending on the weapon type, you have to wield it like an Improvised Weapon. In example, you may be trained to slash with a scimitar, but you're definitely not going to use that same training to bang into the back of someone's head. With that in mind, I use the 'bloodied' rules from 4e so my players have a rough estimate of when a creature is falling. If they want to take the foe alive, they'll have to roll without proficiency, and drop the damage dice (1d4 for one-handed, and I do 1d6 for two-handed improvised) to pommel strike. Alternatively, I give the bad guy 'Superior Cover' for ranged attackers trying to take them alive, representing the accuracy difficulty of a 'called shot.'

That could possibly be something you use to help you alleviate the sneak attack issue you're having. I personally don't really have an issue with Sneak Attack doing 'non-lethal' because most of the time, we play a very goodly group and my rogues like re-flavoring their sneak attack away from 'ambush' and more toward 'finding an opening', especially since you can get that extra damage just from having an ally adjacent to your target. Like in reality, how something hurts a lot worse when you aren't expecting it - step on a lego bare-foot and had no idea legos were on the floor, just always seems to hurt worse than when you're trying to avoid them, but screw up. *glares at son's bedroom floor*

So long-post-short, you're definitely in the right to make it make sense for you and your group. I don't have a similar issue with sneak attack, but making the player declare it before the blow is struck is a good start. For ramifications, you could say that if the rogue is trying to 'sap' the target, but fails to deliver enough damage to knock the foe out, it only does half damage instead. Could make for some interesting strategy.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
What is sneak attack? I see no real mechanical nor narrative difference between knowing the right spot to cut to ill them quicker, and the right spot to hit to knock them out. If anything, when you consider theives' guilds and the larger world and not just murderhobo PCs, striking to knock out would seem by far the most common use except for assassins. There's a whole extra level of heat you bring down if you kill guards, and you also end up where they use deadly force back instead of trying to capture.
 

neogod22

Explorer
Yeah, I remember earlier editions when you did have to declare that before your attack, because like you said, you're trained to swing a sword to cut or pierce, not as a blunt weapon. I usually will let a player know the condition of the enemy if they ask, and usually when I play, the other DMs do as well. I will also ask what kind of armor enemies are wearing, what weapons are they carrying, does anything look special? A lot of players don't and just try and guess armor classes just off of rolls, or just ignore details all together.

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Xaelvaen

Stuck in the 90s
Yeah, I remember earlier editions when you did have to declare that before your attack, because like you said, you're trained to swing a sword to cut or pierce, not as a blunt weapon. I usually will let a player know the condition of the enemy if they ask, and usually when I play, the other DMs do as well. I will also ask what kind of armor enemies are wearing, what weapons are they carrying, does anything look special? A lot of players don't and just try and guess armor classes just off of rolls, or just ignore details all together.

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All my players, at one point or another, take the hand at DMing when they get an inspiring adventure they want to run (especially around my Birthday, where they like to run an entire campaign the month of my birthday to give me a 'break' from being the full-time DM), so when I describe to them that the baddie is wearing splint mail beneath his tabard and has a targe strapped to his forearm, they know the AC is 19 and strategize accordingly.
 

neogod22

Explorer
What is sneak attack? I see no real mechanical nor narrative difference between knowing the right spot to cut to ill them quicker, and the right spot to hit to knock them out. If anything, when you consider theives' guilds and the larger world and not just murderhobo PCs, striking to knock out would seem by far the most common use except for assassins. There's a whole extra level of heat you bring down if you kill guards, and you also end up where they use deadly force back instead of trying to capture.
Interesting point to consider.

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