A question for you firearms aficionados...

[Izod]

A few things about sabots to keep in mind. if you use a sabot method called paper patching then when the projectile is fired the only thing left at the scene will be the paper patch and this will make any forencis id useless as the paper will be suficently dammaged by the firing as to be useless and this will also leave no rifeling marks on the projectile. This method will also prevent wear to the barel of the gun.

Another thing to keep in mind when when talking about sabots is the only real performance differance is that the projectile is usually traveling about 15-25% faster and thus has slightly more energy. This would not translate into more penetration power unless you were firing an AP round. What I would do in this situation is increase the crit multiplier by one.

The only real drawback with sabots is that they may have a tendancy to not feed. This is caused by the fact that the feed ramp on most firearms are not designed to have sabots loaded. But in most cases this can be easily fixed by a decent gunsmith.

Another question for the rest of you gun guys out there. How would you handle frangible ammo? For those of you that haven't heard of it it is projectiles that are made of pressed metal dust. They are usually used in live fire/shoot house exercises. The idea being that they desentergrate on impact. what would the dammage be if you hit an unarmored target with one of these rounds? What about glazers and the like. Again I think that increasing the crit multiplier is the way to go. as we already have the example of hollow point vs. full metal jackets to go by.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

You said Call of Cthulu. This is set in the 1930s, right? I'm pretty sure Sabot rounds were not available in the 1930s. For small arms, anyway.

CoC is commonly set in the 1930's but 1890's and modern day are also played. The "Delta Green" setting is very popular (DG is argueably the best RPG supplement ever) and that is not only modern day, but it involves lots of consipracy, which would explain why they don't want to leave a trail to follow for the agents of the old ones.

Great C'thulu, of course, would find out who shot the round by destroying the continent. But at that point in the game you have other things on your mind.

 

[mmadsen]

Another thing to keep in mind when when talking about sabots is the only real performance differance is that the projectile is usually traveling about 15-25% faster and thus has slightly more energy. This would not translate into more penetration power unless you were firing an AP round.

Why wouldn't 25% more energy -- combined with a smaller cross-section -- result in greater penetration?

 

[Izod]

Why wouldn't 25% more energy -- combined with a smaller cross-section -- result in greater penetration?

you do have a point here but if you consiter this example I think you will get what I was trying to say.

Consiter a 30 cal wepon firing a .223 sabot. The round will be traveling at about 25% faster than from a .30 but will be about on par with a standard .223 so while it will hit harder than a .30 it will be about the same as a .223.

 

[Zenon]

What about glazers and the like. Again I think that increasing the crit multiplier is the way to go. as we already have the example of hollow point vs. full metal jackets to go by.

Glaser Safety Slugss are some seriously nasty rounds for unarmored targets. Increasing the crit range would do nicely, but you'd also have to add something into the rules about the lack of penetration, almost an AC max that it can effect.

For those who don't know about Glasers:

http://www.safetyslug.com/

Check out the wound channel generated in the Gelatin Test:

http://www.safetyslug.com/GelatinTest.htm

 

[Celebrim]

Sabot rounds travel faster, but traveling faster does not in itself indicate that the bullet will do more damage to living flesh. In fact, quite the contrary is often true (especially with a low cross sectional area). To achieve really nasty damage to living flesh, you want somthing that is going to tumble around and flatten when it hits, not something designed to punch straight through. A fast moving Sabot round has higher penetration, but probably a lower critical multiplier (not higher). I've seen some good homebrew rules on the net for handling this, but I don't know if the CoC rules handle penetration, accuracy, and so forth well.

 

[Dremen]

Stopping power

Sabots might lack stopping power.

Even non saboted rounds with small cross sections sometimes offer little in the way of stopping power.

Take this example.

most 9mm pistols can hold 15 rounds or so.

most .45 cal hold 10 or less.

9mm tends to be more popular because of the higher capacity, but it lacks stopping power compared to the .45.

The .45 moves slower but has a larger cross section. I have read many reports of cops puting upwards of 9 shots in a suspect (usually 9mm) and they still don't stop (not dead, but dropped and stopped). .45's tend to have better stopping power, but you have to have more skill as you have 2/3's the shots. Police TEND to have lower skill than recreational shooters. (The gun is part of thier job they only need such and such skilll level to qualify.) Where a shooter who derives his pleasure from shooting, they practice more and tend to be better shooters. Cops TEND to prefer 9mm with its higher ammo count, requireing more shots to stop target and to get the target in the first place. In my experience most non-law enforcement shooters prefer .45's as it has better stopping power and can be less lethal (stop the attacker not kill, also see frangible and glaser ammo) Or the shooters prefer smaller calliber for more convenient carry options. These guys rely on shot placement more than stopping power.

Your milage may vary but this is what I have seen. Saboted rounds may do less damage than standard ammo.

Modern military rounds are smaller and lighter and faster than they used to be. The rounds also tumble when they hit a soft target, causeing more damage than just penetration. The idea is to wound the enemy. This takes 2 guys out. 1 the primary target and 2 the guys buddy trying to hold his intestines in.

-just some random thoughts.

D

 

[drnuncheon]

Why wouldn't 25% more energy -- combined with a smaller cross-section -- result in greater penetration?

At a guess, because the projectile has less mass, which is the other important part of the equation.

J

 

[Arravis]

Well, that answered most of my questions. Thanks guys!

 

[Dire_Groundhog]

If a gun is cleaned after it is fired, it will leave different marks on rounds than before it is cleaned. You would at most be able to tell make/model of the fire arm.

You would think that if this were true, cleaning your gun would be bad. I am pretty sure the brushes used to clean guns are made of brass or copper, fairly soft metals, which would not harm the barrel during cleaning.

I don't think a regular cleaning alters the barrel thread characteristics appreciably.

Sure you could run a hard brush down if you WANTED to change the pattern, but that would be pretty obvious.

Zenon - great articles!