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A Question on Minions...

CodexofRome

First Post
I suppose I find that a tough balanced fight that you can win is as far as i'll go with 4e.

I agree with you here, for the most part.

I just don't let my players know that I'm not going to kill them. And for their part, they enjoy the risks their characters are taking and the dangers they are facing. I do make sure their players know what their characters know, and that includes giving them Monster Knowledge rolls when facing a new monster for the first time.

One great example was last week. The characters are prowling through a ruined underground complex. For the most part, they're facing scattered goblins, rats, bats, spider swarms... low level vermin.

But the complex is the home of a red dragon, a beast I intend for them to confront and kill later in the campaign. So at one point, they opened a door
to find a huge room where the dragon was sleeping, curled up on a pile of treasure and bones.

Immediately, there was a debate. Two of the players wanted to sneak into the room and see if they could surprise the dragon. Two were adamantly opposed to the idea. The other two said nothing, but watched the discussion intently.

When I mentioned that all the whispered talk appeared to be rousing the dragon from its sleep, all the players seemed to jump a bit before agreeing to close the door and back away quietly. The knew, without reading the MM, that they weren't going to beat an adult red dragon in a fight. They know they may be able to in the future.
 

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Danzauker

Adventurer
Well, there's the source of my confusion.

I'm playing a role-playing game where I provide players with an opportunity to do risky and heroic things. There is danger lurking around every corner, uncertainty behind every door, and tension in every encounter.

You're playing a cooperative boardgame.

Actually, there can be heroism, danger, uncertainty and tension in a boardgame, too. And I'm pretty sure during combat you really want to have a grid in 4e.

Well, you see, it wasn't me to open my discussion with an outright declaration that I'm understanding the rules and therefore playing "right" while all others that play in a different way are playing "wrong".

The ONLY problem is that some DMs do not understand the way to use the Minion rules.

I'm sure the Wizard feels useless if the DM says the room is filled with Kobold Minions. Minion is a game term, not an in-character term. Those who don't grasp the significance of that difference are never going to understand what the Minions concept, or properly apply it, or even run a decent game.

That's what most people took an offense at reading. Apart that everybody is free to play as he likes, the rulebooks state in more than one place that an important thing to remember is that to make clear what the most important information is to the players, for example tell them of important conditions like dazed, bloodied, damage auras and such. And I think the status of "minion" to be critical information for tactical decisions.

Of course, like I said, there's no need to say brutally "the orc is bloodied", but, and that's where the Role part in RPG comes fortunately out, I can say "your last blow strikes true past his defences, and the orc is now bloodied" or something like that. Just like I wouldn't ordinarily tell the players how much HPs a creature has but just "he's at full strength" or "he seems severely beaten".

But I strongly believe that players should have a mean to guess which opponents are minions. Many powers are built on that, so it just seems logical for the players to know what their characters could figure out by virtue of their experience. Or do you also make them guess how far a creature is instead of having them look at the grid?
 

Xyl

First Post
The game assumes that hit points are abstract and not a measure of actual injury, instead being a measure of fighting effectiveness.

...

We are then told that minions are supposed to provide a credible threat without having any fighting effectiveness. The rules come out and say that they are crap foes by giving them 1 hp yet they are supposed to be represent credible threats? This does not compute.
I disagree. Hit points don't measure injury, and they don't measure fighting effectiveness either. The wizard isn't less effective just because he has fewer hp than the fighter.

Instead, hit points measure how long a creature retains his effectiveness under attack. A minion is a credible threat. It stays a credible threat until its 1 hp is gone.
 

underfoot007

First Post
Here's a better question. How do the PCs know they, themselves, are not minions? Minion behavior is what everyone should be expecting of everything, not the other way around.


to know it is a minion you make a monster knowlage check, as per PHB page 180
 


DM_Blake

First Post
For me, there is no difference between a minion and a non-minion.

A kobold skyblade is a kobold who has some special training. He knews a few combat tricks other kobolds don't know. He might have some experience in a few battles in his "backstory" so he's a veteran of battle.

A minion is none of those things. No training, probably not a veteran of battle. But he could still drop his javelin and fight with a short sword. He might still use a dragonscale shield from a fallen companioin. He is no more likely to be wearing rags than his fellow kobolds in the cave, including the skyblades, although he might not have any armor at all.

When a mixed horde of kobolds comes running out of the darkness, or from behind overturned tables and chairs, or whatever (kobolds love their ambushes), it might be hard to immediately spot which are minions.

As for the characters, they've never heard the word minion, except as a term for expendable battlefield forces.

But they are switnging swords and axes, firing bows, and casting deadly spells.

Just like here on earth, where a single sword stroke, arrrow, bullet, etc., could kill you and me, so it is with the weapons and spells the characters employ.

Sometimes they hit a kobold and drop it in a single shot. I certainly don't describe it as "you graze the minion's shin with a skin-deep fleshwound, and then it dies." No, I describe it as a "solid blow tears through the kobold's chest, sundering muscle and bone and organs, and the kobold dies."

Likewise, sometimes they hit a kobold, roll damage, and the kobold shrugs it off and kepps attacking. I don't describe it as "your sword rips open the kobold's belly, spilling intestines and organs out in a bloody mess, and now it looks mad as it prepares to hit you back with its own sword." No, I describe it as "you swing for the kobold, but it leaps back, narrowly avoiding a lethal belly wound, though your sword still slices a shallow wound across the kobold's flesh. Now it looks mad."

Sure, the players have knowledge that lets them sort out which was a minion, and which wasn't - after the fact. And they are usually astute enough to work it out during the fight, and take tactical actions accordingly - this amounts to a real world combatant surveying the battlefield and realizing that some enemies are fairly deadly, and other enemies are weaker, new recruits, less battle-hardened, green, cowardly, etc.

But to the characters, they know they really let one kobold have it, and the other kobold got out of the way in the nick of time.

To the characters, there is no concept of minion. Just some kobolds, or orcs, or goblins, or undead, or enemy soldiers, etc., who they kill in one shot (because they hit the enemy somewhere vital) and some they don't kill in one shot (because they only scratch/bruise/graze the enemy a few times before they get in the killing shot).

That's my take on minions.

And to enforce this play style, I often (not always, not even usually, but sometimes) switch around the descriptions of monsters. Maybe that kobold minion over there is wearing chainmail he looted off a dead halfling, and is flailing about with a battle axe he stole from an orc. Maybe that skyblade ran away from some fight a week ago and lost his swords, so he's fighting with a javelin. And maybe that shaman in the back is just clever enough to carry a shield and javelin into battle to disguise his true nature from the threat, so he can get into position to unleash his devastating magic on some unsuspecting enemy cleric in the back.

Who knows, maybe this is a room with 2 skyblades and 12 minions, but the minions are new skyblade recruits, freshly equipped with the right armor and weapons but no idea how to use them yet - go ahead, players, find the real skyblades in that mess...

All of which keeps the players guessing, sometimes, so that they take every enemy as a real threat - which is how it should be.
 


Regicide

Banned
Banned
For me, there is no difference between a minion and a non-minion.

A kobold skyblade is a kobold who has some special training. He knews a few combat tricks other kobolds don't know. He might have some experience in a few battles in his "backstory" so he's a veteran of battle.

A minion is none of those things. No training, probably not a veteran of battle.

That may be an appropriate viewpoint for a kobold minion, however it falls apart completely for higher level minions who often ARE veterans of battles and have killed many lesser creatures for food or pleasure, creatures which would stomp a 1st level party flat.
 

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