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A radicial change: removing Divine casters and others

Arkhandus

First Post
Though I've only got a moment right now, I'll chip in again later with more useful suggestions/comments.

These are two core classes I made for a similar campaign (no divine magic, obviously kinda bleak since the Godswar removed all divine power except what little keeps life possible). Unfortunately, though I made a few minor adjustments earlier this year, they were lost in the March forum crash. However, I think I still have the adjustments in my original text documents, so I may be (re-)updating the old post again soon.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=93039
The Knight (aristocratic warrior, a skilled duelist and brave jouster) (replaces Paladin)
The Scout (decent warrior, very sneaky and observant, not so tough) (replaces Ranger)
No replacements for cleric and druid (bards are the only healers! with their small number of healing spells of course....). No monks in my setting though, since all creatures of the setting get a template I call Grimsoul, representing the fragility of their souls since the Godswar destroyed nearly every bit of divine energy (including all divine beings and divine casters), leaving scarce little to sustain life, let alone do anything else with.
 

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BRP2

First Post
I'm curious what people have in mind for this Bard I'm thinking up for the campaign: keep in mind there are no clerics or druids, or normal healing classes.

-No Spells

-No alignment restrictions

-"Jack-of-all-trades": Bonus Feat at level 2 and 5, choice out of the following: Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Animal Affinity, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Diligent, Investigator, Magic Aptitude, Negotiator, Nimble Fingers, and Persuasive.

-Survival, Handle Animal, and Heal become class skills. (I don't think Heal is a class-skill is it?)

-"Bard Combat Styles": Bonus Feat at level 3, 8, 13, read below.

-Most, if not all, Marshal's minor and major Auras are changed into Bardic Music of various levels. Some spells that were vital to Bards could also be replaced by Bardic Music.

-Because the above change could add A LOT of "songs", aside from the current songs the PHB lists, Bards might be limited to a knowing a certain amount of songs very similar to spells. Either way, the amount of times they can use Bardic Music will greatly increase. Included in this would be a song that gives Fast Healing, which grows in strength as the Bard levels, and likely, if I use the "Songs Known" system, would be considered a PHB song, so all Bards get access to it. This would be the Bard's primary source of healing.

-I know this is probably noted already in the original source, but Bards are not limited to song/instrument. Bards can use chants, likely popular among barbaric nomads, speech, or poetry to inspire. I might want to change the name of Bard to reflect this, to something like Inspirer. Any one have any ideas ;p?

Bard Fighting Styles... three come to mind, but more could be created:

Throwing Dagger: When throwing daggers: "Point-Blank Shot", "Precise Shot", and "Rapid Shot"

Finesse Fighter: When using a light weapon: "Weapon Finesse", er, whatever, getting tired atm.

Sneak Attack: 1d6, 3d6, 5d6, or whatever, probably one less die of damage compared to a Rogue of that level.

Sorry if the above is a bit rough, I'm kind of rushing it without thinking a lot of the raw stats through. I'm sure I picked bad feats to represent the combat styles. Just pretend I picked good ones ;o.

The concept itself, what do people think?
 
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Arkhandus

First Post
Re: The Bard.....

1. Keep it named the Bard, it's probably more fitting and less silly/limited than other names, considering that you're just taking away the spells but keeping the general flavor of the class.

2. I wouldn't increase Bardic Music uses too greatly. Maybe 2/day per Bard level, or 1/day/level + 1/day/Cha bonus.

3. You might consider requiring a few of the major auras from the Marshal be available as Bardic Music only through certain feats. It may or may not be a useful balancing factor.

4. As for the limit on number of Bardic Music effects known, perhaps assign each effect a Perform or Spellcraft value, and say that the Bard cannot know more effects in total, value-wise, than his or her number of ranks in the aforementioned skill.

Say, for instance, that the Bardic Music effects normally available to 1st-level Bards in the core rules (and any equivalent BM effects you designate from amongst the Marshal's and such) would each have a Perform value (or Spellcraft value) of 1. Then each greater tier of Bardic Music effects would have a value 1 point more than the previous tier.

So a Bard with 6 ranks in the skill might learn two BM effects of value 1 each, and a single BM effect of value 2, with 2 points of value 'left over' for learning another effect later. Once that Bard later has a total of 14 ranks in the skill, he or she might know, altogether, two BM effects of value 1 each, one of value 2, two of value 3, and one of value 4.

5. Make absolutely certain that the Fast Healing song is very weak and cannot be used all day long. It should probably be limited to a maximum duration of 1 round per level in the Bard class (or his or her Perform ranks, though basing it on Bard level would be best). Maybe with the Bard's Charisma modifier or something like that factored in. Or perhaps the duration would be equal to the Perform check to activate it, in rounds (i.e. a check of 11 would mean 11 rounds). Probably best to base it on Bard level (so a low-level Bard can only heal a handful of HP to each party member with each Fast Healing song). The Bard will still have several BM uses per day (and will still probably, unfortunately for the DM, be able to fully heal the party after every single battle). A duration of 1 round per 2 Bard levels might be even more reasonable, but I dunno.

6. The fighting styles..... Firstly, the "throwing daggers" style should probably put Precise Shot first, Rapid Shot second, and Far Shot third (no Point-Blank Shot). Quick Draw might be needed though before granting Rapid Shot (since daggers can't be drawn as free actions normally, unlike arrows), making RS third and removing FS or PBS from the style. Secondly, the "finesse" style could probably be Weapon Finesse, Spring Attack, and Improved Disarm. Since it requires using an inherantly-inferior weapon (and likely relying on good Dex/poor Str, meaning even worse damage output) it would be quite fair to let it grant SA and ID without need for the normal prerequisites. They would just help compensate a little for the disadvantages of focusing on a light weapon, while being very swashbuckler-like. Thirdly, the Sneak Attack style gives too many SA dice compared to what benefits the other styles would grant. It should just be 1d6, then 2d6, then 3d6. I dunno what other fighting styles might be particularly appropriate to the Bard, especially without knowing what supplements are expected to be in use.
 

Arkhandus

First Post
RE: Other classes you mentioned....

1. The Mage Blade:

Considering that the only healing magic available within your set-up is from the Dragon Shaman's limited capacity, and your Fast Healing bardic music addition, the Mage Blade seems out of place since it would be able to cast the Battle Healing line of spells, the Transfer Wounds line of spells, and even spells like Raise The Dead.

Assuming, of course, that you don't just ditch the Mage Blade's spell list from Arcana Unearthed and replace it with the Sorcerer's or somesuch. Although AU has weaker healing/rezzing spells in general, they are nonetheless much more significant than the other few bits of healing magic you've otherwise included in your set-up (well, aside from the possible unlimited healing your Fast Healing bardic music could do, through one or several BM uses in a day, if you aren't careful about how you detail the mechanics of that ability).

If you do keep the Mage Blade's original spell list, then you'd likely have/want to include the Complex Spell and Exotic Spell feats from Arcana Unearthed; but then, since you plan on including the Champion too, I figure you'd likely be including at least the feats listed in those two class' Bonus Feat selections.

Also, a note, the Mage Blade is kinda underpowered if using the spell list and such from Arcana Unearthed, since they have 'Multiple Ability Dependency' like Monks, Paladins, and Psions (at least the Psions of 3.0E). The standard Mage Blade uses Charisma as their casting stat, but has poor HD and BAB for a frontline warrior-mage class, so they need good Str and Con as well (or Dex and Con if using a finessable weapon), and they lose some of their extra mobility if they don heavy armor, so Dex is a little important too...... Plus there's not much for a low or mid-level Mage Blade to do about beefing up their AC spell-wise, thus the added usefulness of good Dexterity.... Some of these things are less significant though if using the Sorcerer spell list or something, as opposed to the original spell list in Arcana Unearthed. I would still probably recommend making Mage Blades Intelligence-based casters though, or possibly Wisdom-based. Charisma doesn't really help them much, except with their spells (and, as a note, many AU spells require attack rolls rather than allowing saving throws).

2. The Wizard:

Yes, give them a d6 hit die. Without divine casters or spellcasting bards around to heal and buff the fragile wizard, he or she is likely to die very quickly if not thrown a bone of some sort in the self-preservation department. Mage Blades with the AU spell list don't really suffice for this purpose, as they don't have much to heal/buff a fragile teammate very well, at least not at lower levels.

3. The Spellthief:

You'll almost certainly want to beef up the Spellthief a bit in one way or another. With the reduced variety of spellcasters around (and thus reduced variety in spells available in the setting), combined with its already-existent bit of weakness, the Spellthief could probably do with a boost to its base skill points, hit dice, or something.

4. The Shaman:

You could base your concept on the Shugenja printed in Complete Divine (and before that, Oriental Adventures for 3.0E). Remove the relatively-few non-elemental spells from the Shugenja's spell list as appropriate (such as the Cure X Wounds spells that belong to the Water element spell list for Shugenja), shift a few spells from the Shugenja schools (I forget what they're called in CD, I think they were called 'orders' or somesuch) into the appropriate elements of the main Shugenja spell list, then replace the Shugenja schools/orders/whatever with Totems, granting whatever benefits, abilities, or extra spells known that you intend the Totems to grant. You might remove the Sense Elements class feature as well depending on how potent you make the Totem benefits (shugenja can basically sense the presence of particular elements nearby, such as sensing sources of water (including living creatures of course) within a few dozen yards.

See, Shugenjas each have to choose an element to specialize in; either Air, Earth, Fire, or Water (you could add further elements if desired); and they have to choose a school/order to learn their magic from, which simply grants a set of extra spells known (1 of each level, including 0-level, similar to a clerical domain but with no granted power). The Shugenja is normally a divine caster that receives their spells from elemental nature spirits, but your version could be arcane instead. They're normally Charisma-based casters (though changing it to Wisdom-based would make at least as much sense in-game, really), and spontaneous. Number of spells known and per day resemble the Sorcerer's spell progression.

Shugenjas receive the benefit of Spell Focus with all shugenja spells of their chosen element (can't remember if it stacks with the actual feat or not), but this is their only benefit from their forced specialization. Half the spells they learn are from their chosen element (plus the extra spells known from their school/order, but that's very limited), and the rest of their spells known must be chosen only from the elements not opposed to their own (Air Shugenja can't learn Earth spells, frex). Each element on the Shugenja spell list has around 3-8 spells of each spell level (excluding 0-level, which has only about 1-3 of each element). Most shugenja spells are purely elemental (some are just thematically appropriate though, like teleportive spells amongst the upper levels of the Air element, and healing spells amongst the upper levels of the Water element, etc.).

The list also has a few spells at some levels that are considered to belong to all four elements (and thus available to all Shugenja who choose to learn them), such as Scrying, Protection From Elements, Summon Nature's Ally, etc. Though, Shugenjas are limited to summoning only basic Elementals (i.e. air, earth, fire, and water elementals, not just any creature of the elemental type) with the Summon Nature's Ally spells.

Alter the Shugenja's name, elements, class skills, proficiencies, etc. to suit your idea, and there you go; at least I think it would be less effort to adjust the Shugenja than to cobble together a new class. There shouldn't be too many name/element/skill/proficiency changes needed, thematically.
 

BRP2

First Post
Thanks man, you kick a lot of ass ;o! I'm going to make use of a lot of this, if not all of it, you really helped. I really like your Bard and Shaman suggestions. If anyone wants to reply further, go ahead and I'll listen, but I pretty much got the sense of direction I was looking for. Thanks again, Arkhandus, and everyone else who posted in this thread.
 


Cavebear

First Post
I like the idea of a Magical Aptitude feat required by all spellcasters. I'd go even further and have a Magical Aptitude attribute upon which spellcasting is based--and only those with the feat generate the attribute.

Might make magicusers a little more exotic.

I'd also make priests bards instead of clerics. I'm religious myself, and I don't know any ministers or priests that call down fire from heaven or raise the dead, but I know of a few that are extremely charismatic and persuasive.

The overall concept of making healing less available--I like that a lot, too.

Cheers,

Cavebear
 

The Blue Elf

First Post
BRP2 said:
Basically, I'm writing up a set of house rules that work with the flavor of my campaign world I'm building. I haven't been able to test anything, and right now am doing everything on paper. The biggest change would be to magical classes. It's important to note that feats will be given out every two levels. Here are those changes: (you'll notice a lot of inspiration from UA)

Well, I can give you some idea's. I am not so good at making up idea's let me see what you have...


BRP2 said:
Complete removal of Paladin, Cleric, Druid, and Sorcerer. Some of their spells might be added to the Arcane caster list. I'm not sure about Cure spells. Removal of all-spell casting ability of Ranger and Bards.

I do agree that Rangers spell casting ablitys should be removed. Paladin, Cleric, Druid, and Sorcerers eliminating class idea, I do agree with. It could be difficult too use Bards in the world you are creating might as well find that if they don't have there spell casting ablitys the are very much like a Rogue with no usefulness if your plan as a Bard as the main Rogue complex the in the game.

BRP2 said:
Rangers. Gain some of the benefits of the Scout class and can progress both with Favored Terrain and Favored Enemy(given both at level 1 and can choose which to enhance every 5 levels after).

That is a good idea for one and for two they should also have useful feat like Disarm a person from longrange attack Ablity when they fire a range weapon targeting an Enemy by targeting Arms or hands too Disable them from attacking.


BRP2 said:
Bard. which I need help with, will be given a single choice out of the following (small) melee bonuses: Sneak Attack, Range(Throwing Knives) feats, and Swashbuckler-style fighting. The part I actually need help with: this Bard is now more focused on music/poetry/story-telling to take the place of their magic, not exactly, but in terms of usefulness.

Like I said before If you plan to use them like gypse Characters very much like a Rogue with no usefulness, I think you might as well Rearange the Bard Class as the main Rogue complex Mechanic the in the game I might figure some way too make them useful. I can only tell you the Sneak Attack ablity could be good.

BRP2 said:
Fighting Style Monks.
As in a Mastery of Weapons, or Hand to Hand Style combat for Monk Classes that a good idea?

BRP2 said:
Totem-based Barbarians.
As in Warrors they follow the same as the Fighter class.

BRP2 said:
Fighters. Lose level their 2 feat. Gain "Favored Fighting Styles" at level 5, 9, 13, 17. I have not developed these, but they are pretty much bonuses based on archetypes that have prerequisites. Like a style based on being an Archer who snipes from far away, or a dreadnought type character that is given bull-rush style bonuses, or a defender type that uses their shield as a weapon, or a swashbuckler type, ect. Prerequisites would be feats that match the bonuses given, in addition to the Fighter have to at least once perform that fighting style(like bull-rush a large amount of targets once in his career to select the dreadnought favored fighting style). A Fighter can choose to gain a new Favored fighting style instead of increase the strength of a previous one. If a Fighter meets no prerequisites or simply wants it, he will gain the "Battle-Hardened" fighting style, which gives a +1 Initiative, +1 AC against AoO, and +1 Attack with AoO per bonus.

It could work unless you make some restrictions too the Fighter class Mechanic I really think you should try making a class template too see if that for making diffirent fighter stlye classes.
BRP2 said:
Finally, the Wizard class is split into 8 specialist classes, exactly as listed in UA. It's impossible to be a 'main-stream' Wizard. They still keep their bonus spell, unlike the variant, but half the spells they prepare must be of their specialized school. Thinking about giving them a d6 hit die.

Added Classes:

Artificer and Spellthief.

Knight. 4 + INT Modifier skills. Gain Heal and all Knowledge skills except Arcana and Nature.

Dragon Shamans. In this setting, they are worshiping a dragonic race/god(it's not an option otherwise).

Mage Blade and Champion, from Arcana Unearthed. Not completely sure, would like to hear opinions on these.

How about Psionic could be added too the specialist classes for a Wizard but you have too make difftrent temples for Specialization of those classes which might give them some Restrictions.Dragon Shamans, I think you should try Dragon Riders as another idea, Shamans making them the Druid Complex Mechanic in the game might be difficult to be used. I don't knowm how about Renaming classes from Mage Blade too Mage Knight, and create a template for that.
BRP2 said:
A Shaman class with limited spell casting that is almost completely based on elements who also abide to the totems they share with Barbarians. I have not developed or found any classes to based this on. I was considering Dragon Shamans, but decided to make it a class on it's own, since dragon gods are one of the few worshiped ones. (Use WIS as main spell casting stat).

Well you can check it out in the old 3.0 Prestege classes from Masters of the Wild: A Guidebook to Barbarians, Druids and Rangers they have some Prestege classes that might give you some ideas or create made up classes.



BRP2 said:
I know this is a lot of information to give out at once... but its fine, even encouraged, that anyone reading this focuses on one of the above variants instead of all of them when giving their opinion. I'm especially looking for a Bard that fits what I'm trying to describe(at least the focus on songs portion). And to a lesser degree the same for a totem-based shaman that focuses on elemental magic.

It could be hard too make Bards fit them into a role of the game....

I like that idea, Elemental Magic for Shamans it could balance the Magic which only Shamans can use it.You might have too consider giving some restrictions apply too Wizards in the game just in case.

BRP2 said:
I'm looking to limit the amount of cure spells somewhat. I'm thinking about using "Reserve Points" for this, which is simply having a number of HP you can cure yourself with on hand when not distracted. I think adding all the cure spells to a school of magic might make that school over powered..

I don't know about healing skills Spells you could use Potions or Salve which is a An analgesic or medicinal ointment which is the only way to heal in the game as an Idea.

BRP2 said:
For lore purposes(to put some understanding): Gods outside of some nature/elemental spirits play a very small role in the world. In addition, there is no Divine magic, but simply Arcane and only Arcane magic. Religions vary from each other, from transcendentalism, diabolism, worshiping of family spirits(primary Dwarves, Gnolls, and Gnomes), worshiping of nature(primary Trolls, Halflings, Orcs, and some Goblinoids), worshiping of a sun-based god(primary Humans) and worshiping of two Parthenons of Dragon and Elf Gods(primary Elves, Kobolds, some Gobliniods, Lizardfolk, and Minotaur). And atheism of course.

Continent is split into many regions, but four most important regions would be a(n): Elven magic empire, uncivilized land for nomads, a stripe of many small Dwarven democracies, and Hobgoblin socialist empire. In between are Human theocracies or democracies and at least one nation made up completely of Gnolls and a Vampiric subrace of Elves. In this setting, at least on this continent humans are not the most successful or expansive or technologically advance race, but play a role similar to Halflings or Dwarves in other settings.

Its a good start, but all you need now is a Histroy.
 

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