A short guide to the Essential Thief's movement tricks

[Prestidigitalis]

Below is an armchair expert's guide to the Rogue's Tricks that an Essentials Thief has exclusive access to. They are listed from best at the top to worst at the bottom. Because I haven't used them in an actual encounter, I welcome anyone who has done so to step in and offer suggestions, corrections or bribes. It's not like the guides you see on CharOp, but then, I'd be scared to post over there, whereas I know that all of you warm and fuzzy ENWorlders will welcome this contribution with cookies and milk.

*** The list beginneth

Acrobat's Trick: The one unique trick in the bunch, its true benefit is in the movement. Yes, you too can have a climb speed of 3 if you are dwarf, 5 if you are an elf, or 4 if you are boring. (For the uninitiated, climb speed means you can climb on vertical surfaces without an Athletics check. This means you can walk vertically up walls or horizontally along them just as well as you can walk on regular terrain. Some DMs will tell you that it doesn't work on walls of ice, etc., but you should slash their tires and find a new DM.) Use it out of combat to go places you haven't been invited or get out of places you got into by accident. Use it in combat to avoid obstacles, difficult terrain and OAs. The attack benefit is less awesome, but quite useful nonetheless -- extra damage is always nice. It's golden if you already have CA from some other source -- flanking, prone/stunned/dazed opponent, Vicious Advantage against a Slow-ed opponent, etc. If you don't have CA and can't use one of your other tricks to get it -- well, at least it's some extra damage.

Tactical Trick: Movement benefit allows you to ignore OAs when leaving squares adjacent to your allies. This could enable a Thief to move as much as 6 or 7 squares right through a congested melee with no risk at all, or simply get far out of melee quickly. The attack benefit is… just awesome. You get CA against creatures that have one of your allies adjacent to them. This means that once your melee comrades close to hack&slash range, you have a guaranteed CA for most of the rest of the encounter. The creatures so honored will be taking melee damage from those same comrades, and therefore are probably the ones that are getting focus fire -- you couldn't pick a better target. The one time when this trick won't work well is in the first round of combat, when you probably go before your melee comrades and they haven't had time to get up close yet, but guess what? That's the round you get CA from First Strike. I'm not seeing much of a problem here.

Ambush Trick: No movement benefit. The attack benefit grants CA (but only until the end of the same turn) against enemies within 5 squares who have no adjacent allies. This sounds like an easy way to get CA, but there are a few potential problems with it. Lone opponents are probably on the fringes of the combat, therefore not in melee, and thus probably not the target of focus fire; if you attack them you will not be contributing to focus fire yourself. They also may be out of range, or even just be minions, unworthy of your attention. So it won't always give you CA against a worthy opponent. On the other hand, it's positively amazing for getting CA on flying creatures or those who are isolated on unreachable parapets, etc. -- creatures who otherwise would be almost impossible to get CA against -- so long as they are within 5 squares of you.

Escape Artist's Trick: This trick has no attack benefit per se. Movement benefit is to shift 2 squares, and then be able to shift 2 squares again at the end of your turn. This appears to allow "leap out from hiding, attack, go back into hiding" -style attacks similar to the Rogue at-will power Deft Strike. Most valuable for ranged combatants who want to flit in and out of hiding. It also allows a non-feat enhanced Thief to shift up to 5 squares in a turn across non-difficult terrain; whether this would ever really come in handy or not is hard to say.

Sneak's Trick: This trick has no attack benefit per se. Movement is restricted to speed -2, but at the end of the move you can make a Stealth check to hide if you have any cover or concealment (rather than the normal superior cover or concealment). That sounds pretty good to me, but the effectiveness would depend on the player's skill in utilizing "hidden" to best effect. Most valuable for ranged combatants who want to flit in and out of hiding. It could also be useful out of combat, when using Stealth to scout a location, but someone better versed than I am in the Stealth rules would have to weigh in on that question -- there may be easier ways to do it.

*** The dividing line. You get 5 tricks total, so unless you have a niche build, I don't see why you would take the options listed below. It's not that they are useless, but you do only get 5 tricks, and the ones above are just better. Still, the next two are okay-ish.

Tumbling Trick: Movement benefit is to shift 3 squares as a move. The attack benefit (Str damage to different adjacent foe on hit, identical to Cleave) only occurs on melee attacks, only when you have two adjacent foes, and divides your damage between two opponents. Better to use Acrobat's Trick and inflict a bit less damage but at least to the primary target.

Unbalancing Trick: Movement benefit is to shift 2 squares as a move. Escape Artist's Trick gives you the same, plus the option to shift another 2 squares at the end of your turn. The attack benefit (knock prone on hit) only occurs on melee attacks, and the party brought you on to deal damage, not to knock creatures prone.

*** Another dividing line. I don't see any reason to take either of these tricks when the others above are SO much better.

Thug's Trick: Movement benefit is to shift 1 square as a move, which you can always do anyway, so no actual benefit. The attack benefit is delayed and contingent on being in a flanking situation where the flanked opponent wants to shift. That sounds like a pretty rare situation to me, as the Thief is usually a prime target. It could be handy if you and an ally can get up close to flank a ranged opponent. But if you have flanking, what options does the opponent really have? Shifting once still leaves it adjacent to one of you -- it takes another shift to put it where it can hypothetically move freely, and by then it probably is out of actions. All you have to do is flank it again on your next turn and it's back in the same situation, having wasted its entire turn trying to escape in slow motion. No, it will probably stay and fight, and what better target than you, the high-damage, low-defense Thief? He ain't gonna be shifting, I tell you that.

Feinting Trick: No movement benefit. The attack benefit only works if you don't have CA. Acrobat's Trick is almost as good in that regard; with Charisma of 18 increased at every opportunity, the extra damage from using Feinting Trick instead of Acrobat's Trick starts at 2 and goes up to 3 at epic level. That's not much difference for a benefit that will only arise in a circumstance you try desperately to avoid in the first place.


////// Random thoughts and comments

I suspect that over the long term, the big argument over these tricks will always be Tactical vs. Ambush. They are the most readily compared and the most critical to a Thief's success because they are the two that grant CA. I prefer Tactical, but there are probably cases where Ambush is better. I'd love to hear about those cases.

For ranged Thiefs, Tactical Trick gets an additional edge over Ambush Trick because of the lack of a range limitation. If you are trying to stay out of melee, do you really want to stay within 5 squares of the critters you are pinging away at? I didn't think so.

Ranged Thiefs who love flitting in and out of shadows might place Escape Artist's Trick or Sneak's Trick higher in the list. That's fine with me, if you know how to use them properly.

One of the problems with Tumbling Trick and Feinting Trick is that their benefits accrue primarily to the extent that you pump Strength or Charisma. If you want to spread your point buy more evenly, they just won't be worth it. Personally, I'm entranced by the possibility of a Dex+Con Thief -- one that can actually take a bit of punishment -- so pumping Strength of Charisma is simply out of the question.

I find it interesting that all of the tricks are oriented toward a Move First, Attack Second turn. I'd like to see them add a trick that works best when you Attack First, Move Second.

 

[twilsemail]

Just touching on a few things:

Tactical Trick

I love this trick. That is all.

Ambush Trick

I think most Thieves will fall in love with this one over time.

*** The dividing line. You get 5 tricks total, so unless you have a niche build, I don't see why you would take the options listed below. It's not that they are useless, but you do only get 5 tricks, and the ones above are just better. Still, the next two are okay-ish.

I think you're really underestimating some of these.

Tumbling Trick: Movement benefit is to shift 3 squares as a move. The attack benefit (Str damage to different adjacent foe on hit, identical to Cleave) only occurs on melee attacks, only when you have two adjacent foes, and divides your damage between two opponents. Better to use Acrobat's Trick and inflict a bit less damage but at least to the primary target.

See, here's the thing. It doens't really divide your damage. You aren't doing less damage than you otherwise would. You're simply killing that minion over there. It's like a very mini FoB.

Unbalancing Trick: Movement benefit is to shift 2 squares as a move. Escape Artist's Trick gives you the same, plus the option to shift another 2 squares at the end of your turn. The attack benefit (knock prone on hit) only occurs on melee attacks, and the party brought you on to deal damage, not to knock creatures prone.

I think this could work out well for Thieves with striker flanking partners or Warlords tailing them around. It's certainly not the cream of the crop.

*** Another dividing line. I don't see any reason to take either of these tricks when the others above are SO much better.

Again, I think you're underestimating these.

Thug's Trick: Movement benefit is to shift 1 square as a move, which you can always do anyway, so no actual benefit. The attack benefit is delayed and contingent on being in a flanking situation where the flanked opponent wants to shift. That sounds like a pretty rare situation to me, as the Thief is usually a prime target. It could be handy if you and an ally can get up close to flank a ranged opponent. But if you have flanking, what options does the opponent really have? Shifting once still leaves it adjacent to one of you -- it takes another shift to put it where it can hypothetically move freely, and by then it probably is out of actions. All you have to do is flank it again on your next turn and it's back in the same situation, having wasted its entire turn trying to escape in slow motion. No, it will probably stay and fight, and what better target than you, the high-damage, low-defense Thief? He ain't gonna be shifting, I tell you that.

This is particularly good for Thieves with a Defender-y flanking buddy. It helps Pin the baddie down near them and flanked for another turn. If he hits you, he suffers the Defenders punishment. I imagine Battleminds and Wardens would laud this Thief for ages to come.

Also works well with certain controllers who can punish an enemy staying still.

Feinting Trick: No movement benefit. The attack benefit only works if you don't have CA. Acrobat's Trick is almost as good in that regard; with Charisma of 18 increased at every opportunity, the extra damage from using Feinting Trick instead of Acrobat's Trick starts at 2 and goes up to 3 at epic level. That's not much difference for a benefit that will only arise in a circumstance you try desperately to avoid in the first place.

OK, so I don't like this one either.

I suspect that over the long term, the big argument over these tricks will always be Tactical vs. Ambush. They are the most readily compared and the most critical to a Thief's success because they are the two that grant CA.

I've not really seen too many rogues before essentials struggling to gain CA. I know "I get CA" is nice and all... but it's not that hard without tricks. Am I the only one with that experience?

I find it interesting that all of the tricks are oriented toward a Move First, Attack Second turn. I'd like to see them add a trick that works best when you Attack First, Move Second.

If the benefit from last turn is still useful, it's worth holding on to it and then Tricking after your attack. This is especially true when looking at who's coming after you in initiative and what they're likely to do.

That's me typing on the good ol' ramblomatic. Hope it made some sense.

 

[WalterKovacs]

The Sneak's Trick works best as an "attack first, move second". If you use it to move first, it just gives you combat advantage from the attack, since attacking ends the hidden condition, but hiding after the attack benefits you until the following turn (where you either stay hidden, or attack).

On Thug's Trick, being flanked by a rogue is ussually not a good thing for a monster to do, so it would normally try to shift out of it (technically it doesn't "know" the rogue can make an O/A against it if it does shift) although it would try to do so in a way that would make it difficult for the PCs to get back into a flank again (if the monster had allies nearby, shifting next to one of them would cover at least one of their sides from being flanked, etc). Ultimately, the potential OA is a lot like Fighter powers that boost the OA ... it depends a lot on how the DM plays the monsters. Some DMs provoke OAs (or invoke the fighter's interupt attack) often enough for it ot matter, others avoid them so often, that you would never get to use it. Many will take the power anyway, as on the off chance they get to make the attack, the rules for sneak attack would allow them to apply their sneak attack all over again.

As for the point buy spreading, etc ... many players will go with Dex/Cha or Str/Dex for their thieves, especially since there are more races to easily support it (just from Essentials there is the halfling and the drow for the first, and the half-orc for the second, and there may be more later). For those ones, not only will they have one trick especially suited for them, but they also have many utility powers and feats from the older rogue stuff that support their secondary stat. For those going with "non-traditional" builds (Dex/Wis is also useful for a scouting rogue since a high perception to go with high stealth/high thievery can help in scouting ahead, finding traps, etc). In those cases, ignore the secondary stat specific tricks, and turn to the non-stat dependent utilities, and skill power utilities [or multiclassing].

EDIT:

On the "I get Combat Advantage" front ... it's important to recall that, unlike their non-Essential bretheren, the Theif Rogue has no access to the dailies and encounter powers that it used to use to sometimes get extra combat advantage. Since many of the rogues I DM'ed for went with daggers (most of the damage is coming from sneak attack, so why go for a point of two on average of extra damage in exchange for lower accuracy?) and, because of that, they didn't care much about multiple weapon damage, instead picking for effects. Thanks to many of those effects, they had combat advantage every turn. The Thief Rogue still has access to utilities (some of which allow them to get combat advantage), and their allies can provide effects as well (dazing, knocking prone, flanking, etc), but, while it isn't hard to get combat advantage most of the time ... when you are in a position to not be able to get it... your striker suddenly stops being a striker. Any means to get combat advantage is a very useful backup for any rogue. It's not so much that it's hard to get C/A, but that it's very hard in those instances where you can't get it easily.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

See, here's the thing. It doens't really divide your damage. You aren't doing less damage than you otherwise would. You're simply killing that minion over there. It's like a very mini FoB.

It's less damage to the primary than if you used the damage bonus from Acrobat's Trick instead.

I think this could work out well for Thieves with striker flanking partners or Warlords tailing them around. It's certainly not the cream of the crop.

That's possible. But if you are really up there in melee with a flanking buddy, prone won't get you any more CA than you already have from flanking. The big advantage (and not that big) would be that because the enemy is prone, it's an extra move action for them to get away.

Again, I think you're underestimating these.

Well, that *is* why I said suggestions were welcome!

This is particularly good for Thieves with a Defender-y flanking buddy. It helps Pin the baddie down near them and flanked for another turn. If he hits you, he suffers the Defenders punishment. I imagine Battleminds and Wardens would laud this Thief for ages to come.

But if he hits you, he *already* suffers the Defender's punishment. Being pinned merely makes it more likely that he makes that decision. The real issue is, how much extra pinned does the trick make him?

Take two situations. In the first, the Defender can attack on a shift (Fighter or Knight or -- I forget); in the second, the Defender can't.

Case #1: To escape the pin, the enemy can

a. shift (taking an attack from the Defender), then shift again. Total movement = two squares, not much of an escape.
b. shift adjacent to the Defender but not the Thief (taking an attack from the Defender), then move (taking an OA from the Defender). Escapes about 7 squares, but soaks up two attacks in the process.
c. shift adjacent to the Thief but not the Defender (taking an attack from the Defender), then move (taking an OA from the Thief). Escapes about 7 squares, but soaks up two attacks in the process.
d. move (taking an OA from both Defender and Thief) and then move again.
If the Defender is a Fighter with Combat Superiority, and the OA hits, the move is only one square, and the total escape is again about 7 squares, and it soaks up two attacks in the process.

Thug's Trick adds an attack to the first 3 scenarios, but none of them sound very appetizing for the enemy in the first place. They might as well go with option d, in which case Thug's Trick does nothing.

Case #2: Similar to Case #1, but with one fewer attack for scenarios a-c. In this case, Thug's Trick tilts the field a bit more toward staying put. But even without it, the enemy has a choice only between staying put, shifting twice with no attacks, shift+move with one OA, or move+move or move+attack with two OAs.

To summarize, for the specific task of pairing with an ally to flank and pin an enemy who doesn't like melee, it could help seal the deal. On the other hand, a lot of creatures who don't like melee either a) have a close attack of some sort or b) have a special move to get away, like teleportation. It would work best against those creatures who have a special move to get away, but which uses shifting to do it.

So sure, that's one that I may have underestimated. However, it is weakened a bit by the fact that the move associated with it is limited to shift 1. So you can't move your full speed into position and then invoke it, at least not without an extra action.

I've not really seen too many rogues before essentials struggling to gain CA. I know "I get CA" is nice and all... but it's not that hard without tricks. Am I the only one with that experience?

Others have said the same, but I think it depends on either a) tweaking all of your powers and feats to getting CA or b) having a really good flanking partner or frequent beneficial terrain. In my own brief stint with a Rogue, I didn't get high enough level to see much of "a" or experience much of "b" at any time.

If the benefit from last turn is still useful, it's worth holding on to it and then Tricking after your attack. This is especially true when looking at who's coming after you in initiative and what they're likely to do.

I guess it depends on what benefit you want to carry over until your next turn. Thug's Trick, Escape Artist's Trick and Sneak's Trick could all set up for something later, but only Thug's Trick really benefits anyone other than yourself if used after your own attack.

That's me typing on the good ol' ramblomatic. Hope it made some sense.

It did. Thanks for the input.

I'd just like to reiterate -- it's not so much that any of the tricks is all that bad -- it's just that when you only get 5 of them total, there is an opportunity cost to taking one with only situational benefit or only a small benefit relative to one that is more broadly useful.

 

[Mengu]

Acrobat's Trick is pure awesome. Can't imagine not having it. Walking on walls is super useful. Just keep in mind, you gain the climb speed only during the move. At the end of the move, if you are not somewhere you could stand, you fall. Think Prince of Persia. You can run along walls, but only so far. The damage bonus would likely make this the most frequently used trick. If I could nab a movement trick for a regular rogue somehow, this would be it.

Tactical Trick is a great go to power when you can't otherwise gain combat advantage, or need to reposition to focus fire on the right target. I think this would be my second choice for most rogues.

Ambush Trick would be my next choice for a bit of versatility with ranged attacks, and those annoying times when you don't win initiative.

The rest just depends on what your party/campaign needs are. If you don't otherwise have a good way to deal with minions, Tumbling Trick is certainly nice. If you find you need to sneak around a lot in a campaign, or prefer to stay at range, Sneak's Trick moves you around much faster than speed 2. You could be in stealth scout mode at speed 5 as an elf, which is as fast as the warpriest and knight clanking around behind. Unbalancing Trick can be quite nice for teaming up with a Headman's Chop Slayer or Barbarian, or if you have a Warlord or Shaman who likes giving you extra attacks. Escape Artist's trick is great for avoiding swarm auras, and avoiding ending your turn in a zone, and may be a good tool to have late in the thief's career.

 

[cdrcjsn]

I think you're underestimating Unbalancing trick.

Go right after a badguy.
Move to flank badguy with ally.
Hit it and it goes prone.

All of your friends with melee attacks now have combat advantage.
Plus, the next round, the bad guy has to lose a move action to get up or it takes a -2 to all of it's attacks.

So for a melee heavy party or when fighting foes with annoying move/minor action powers, it's pretty nice to have.

It's not so good in a party with mostly ranged attackers however.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Acrobat's Trick is pure awesome. Can't imagine not having it. Walking on walls is super useful. Just keep in mind, you gain the climb speed only during the move. At the end of the move, if you are not somewhere you could stand, you fall. Think Prince of Persia. You can run along walls, but only so far. The damage bonus would likely make this the most frequently used trick. If I could nab a movement trick for a regular rogue somehow, this would be it.

Regarding falling at the end of the move -- what if you used it twice, as if a double-move? Would you fall before you had a chance to take the second action to continue using it? And would you automatically fall, or would have the option to make an Athletics check to catch yourself, assuming there was something to catch yourself on?

 

[Mengu]

Regarding falling at the end of the move -- what if you used it twice, as if a double-move? Would you fall before you had a chance to take the second action to continue using it? And would you automatically fall, or would have the option to make an Athletics check to catch yourself, assuming there was something to catch yourself on?

I'd say you would not fall until the end of the double move, because of the specific wording in double move that combines the movement modes in a move action that is taken twice.

If you don't arrive on a surface you could stand on, yes you would automatically fall, except when you fall while climbing, you are allowed an athletics check as in the Catch Hold rules under athletics (climb DC +5).

 

[twilsemail]

It's less damage to the primary than if you used the damage bonus from Acrobat's Trick instead.

So is Ambush Trick. These are all situational in some way.

Well, that *is* why I said suggestions were welcome!

go go ramble-o-matic!

{Thug's Trick analysis}

I'm AFB, but I seem to recall that Thug's trick doesn't limit the OA to just the Thief. If he's adjacent to anyone else, he's also getting OA'd by them.

I really need to scan the important parts of that book and stick them on my thumb-drive...

Others have said the same, but I think it depends on either a) tweaking all of your powers and feats to getting CA or b) having a really good flanking partner or frequent beneficial terrain. In my own brief stint with a Rogue, I didn't get high enough level to see much of "a" or experience much of "b" at any time.

I usually see parties built together so if someone is playing a melee rogue, they're destined to have a flanking buddy. I'm new to PbP, but it's been a gamble so far playing a Rogue over in LEB. It definitely changes the experience.

I guess it depends on what benefit you want to carry over until your next turn. Thug's Trick, Escape Artist's Trick and Sneak's Trick could all set up for something later, but only Thug's Trick really benefits anyone other than yourself if used after your own attack.

Depending on your set up, I could also see Unbalancing trick carrying over well. If you're getting off turn attacks (And with the new Sneak Attack you'd better be).

It did. Thanks for the input.

A pleasure.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

I'd say you would not fall until the end of the double move, because of the specific wording in double move that combines the movement modes in a move action that is taken twice.

If you don't arrive on a surface you could stand on, yes you would automatically fall, except when you fall while climbing, you are allowed an athletics check as in the Catch Hold rules under athletics (climb DC +5).

The only thing is, I'm not sure that using Acrobat's Trick twice, consecutively, in one turn would count under the double move rules. Can someone remind me of the exact wording of the most recent version of "double move"? (I'm assuming it's been updated at some point since the PHB.)

Catch Hold -- that's what I was referring to. Anyway, so long as the distance you needed to move was less than double your speed minus 4, it wouldn't matter. Let's hear it for elves and canonical 50 foot cliffs!