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A simple, brilliant fix for the Monk

Talic

First Post
Great topic here. Monk is definately one of my favorite classes. Lots of intriguing ideas being tossed around.

But I'm not sure it needs quite as big a power boost as is being suggested. What about something a little smaller, like simply granting the monk Weapon Finesse for his unarmed strikes and/or monk weapons at 1st level, ignoring the feat requirements? It would reduce the need for 4 strong ability scores, which seems to be the biggest issue.
 

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Talic said:
Great topic here. Monk is definately one of my favorite classes. Lots of intriguing ideas being tossed around.

But I'm not sure it needs quite as big a power boost as is being suggested. What about something a little smaller, like simply granting the monk Weapon Finesse for his unarmed strikes and/or monk weapons at 1st level, ignoring the feat requirements? It would reduce the need for 4 strong ability scores, which seems to be the biggest issue.
Well, maybe it depends on personal experience, but I think Weapon Finesse isn't a real solution to the Monk problem. The Monk still needs Strength for Damage, Grapple and Trip which are all vital combat aspect of the Monk. Thematically I think it makes sense for a Monk (since I seem them as both spiritually as pysically "fit") to have a high Strength.
 

Stalker0

Legend
szilard said:
One thing I have considered is to give monks a damage boost akin to Skirmish or Sneak Attack that works unarmed (or - possibly less effectively - with Monk weapons) instead of increasing unarmed damage.

-Stuart

I think SA damage would be too much overlap with the rogue. However, I think skirmish damage would be a fine idea, it would allow the monk to utilize his mobility more efficiently so he could do decent damage even if he only gets one move.

To keep back to the ability score idea, I still think its a good idea, I just think its a little much. I would start with giving them a smaller number of ability bonuses and see how far a player can stretch them.
 

szilard

First Post
Stalker0 said:
I think SA damage would be too much overlap with the rogue. However, I think skirmish damage would be a fine idea, it would allow the monk to utilize his mobility more efficiently so he could do decent damage even if he only gets one move.

I was actually thinking that it would work whenever the Monk was unarmed (or - possibly - armed with monk weapons) as long as the Monk has attained a focused state (sort of like psionic focus - this wouldn't be unlike the Soulknife's psychic strike, but it would do a bit less damage).

-Stuart
 

Tyrion

First Post
Just wondering if anyone happened to use any of the suggestions in this thread, and how they worked out.

I've been using the 10-point Mastery of Self as I posted above, and it's worked really well for my games (which admittedly are more combat-heavy than average, I expect). Monks are now much more of a "core" class, on par with the fighter, wizard, cleric, etc. They have a more strongly defined role while at the same time being more customizable and individualized for each player.
 

Jack99

Adventurer
jayaint said:
Just curious if anyone here houseruled in a Fighter's BAB for Monk's unarmed attacks, and if it worked, didn't, etc.
Thanks.

We use this houserule, and have for a good while. We see no balance issues from it at all. Makes for a bit more able monks, that's all.
 

eamon

Explorer
Paraxis said:
As far as magic items go, the monk has the same money the fighter does and benifits from all the same stuff expect weapons and armor as far as armor goes he has two stats to increase to give him bonus where fighter has only one that is limited by the type of armor he wears and monks get bracers, as far as weapons 3 times the cost for amulet of might fists is not bad since a dual wielding fighter has two weapons to spend money on. My amulet of mighty fists +2, with flaming , shocking, holy is real nice too, thats why I left magic items out of equation.

That's not really true, unfortunately.

The monk is missing a number of body slots: Armor, Weapon, and shield - which can hold valuable enhancement by twentieth level. You could certainly max-out all three and invest 400k just on those three and get a reasonable return, and have 360k left for other things (of course you don't need to blow that much money). A monk will have trouble Secondly, a monks amulets cost far, far more than normal weapon enhancements. And on top of that - it's an amulet, which means you'll have trouble because you also want a wisdom amulet.
 

Arkhandus

First Post
......Hrm. Doesn't seem like anyone bothered to do any real number-crunching or objective analysis of this stuff. I'm going to leave psionics out of this since both monks and fighters could take the same psionic feats (Wild Talent + Psionic Fist/Weapon, etc.) anyway.

Also, I've left out the monk-weapons-dealing-monk-unarmed-damage bit, as I don't think applying that houserule in the same comparison would be a fair representation of the first houserule's effects. Allowing them to do the same damage with monk weapons would only result in monks ditching their unarmed attacks except in rare circumstances (fighting stuff with DR x/bludgeoning, DR x/lawful, or DR x/adamantine, which is much more rare than other DR types).

There would be no point to getting an Amulet of Mighty Fists, and the monk would then be doing much more damage with much more accuracy (it's cheaper to get a magic weapon than an Amulet of Mighty Fists, and the magic weapon doesn't take up a valuable slot unlike the Amulet, and magic weapons can receive other abilities that are very useful, like Holy, Keen, Flaming, Ghost Touch, etc., as well as the possibility of adding Ki Focus to the weapon). Monks would just use magically-enhanced kamas, and maybe sais or sianghams on occasion (though unlikely, the kama's best for this). Probably a cold-iron kama, and a silvered kama, to get past the most common and annoying damage reduction types. The weapon would be a much better deal, and more useful in combat, than just using unarmed strikes.


Overall, my comparisons indicate that your Monk changes put Monks too close to Fighters and Fighter/Barbarins in terms of fighting ability, if they don't distribute the ability bonuses broadly like only a dedicated anti-powergamer would do (most people will at least optimize their characters a little bit to be good at what they do).

If focused on Strength they'll be just a tiny bit less accurate/damaging than a pure warrior-type, if focused on Dexterity or Wisdom they'll be much harder to hit and also have some better skills, and, well, there's no sane reason to focus on the other stats as a Monk (some Constitution will help, but a Monk who is only good at taking lots of damage is not a very useful Monk, especially since Barbarians will still be better at that and also much better at dealing out damage).


Monks have a lot more stuff they can do (and numerous awesome defenses), compared to Fighters or Barbarians, and normally their only problem is that they do all the best stuff terribly, while doing the kinda-useful and marginally-useful stuff quite well. If a Monk focuses on trying to be effective in battle, he's going to be sub-par at everything else, and will still lag well behind a Fighter in combat (even a pure Fighter; and just not quite as far behind as a more typical Monk). Whereas other Monks may focus on being agile, wise, and tricky, which makes them less effective in combat but more broadly useful and fun (except that being mostly-useless when a fight breaks out is un-fun).

Your houserule basically removes that weakness, but overcompensates, making Monks just a tad less effective than pure-warrior-types, and only if those pure-warrior-types are similarly focused at being very good at combat (rather than taking more esoteric feats, skills, and ability score priorities). While the Monks retain their great general-usefulness, and some of it is heightened by their likely-awesome-and-unmatched Strength, Dexterity, or Wisdom. Plus they're even more-awesome caster-killers with this houserule, since they do more damage and more accurately, so they have a higher chance of insta-killing a mage after charging them (or after an Abundant Step followed by sneaking up; or even, in fact, just taking an 80-foot move and then attacking, since that's pretty good speed for a single move action, and might be enough to reach the enemy mage despite obstacles or rough terrain).

The difference from your houserule is less significant at low levels, but becomes more significant as the Monk gains more and more levels; after around 4 to 8 levels of Monk is probably when it starts to become noticeable in play without using number-crunching, as by then it's a free 2 or 4 point increase in a stat (+2 to the modifier it grants, assuming the Monk applies it all to one stat as would be prudent).


My comparisons (the ones I've statted out and done the math for) are based on pouring the Monk ability score increases into Strength, the most obvious and effective choice; I used a Ftr 4/Monk 16 for that (so +8 Str over time), compared to a Ftr 12/Barbarian 8 (unless using various non-Core sources, or trying to just be decent at all fighting styles and great at none of them, there's no good reason to go beyond 12 levels of Fighter). If I had used a higher point-buy or wasn't demonstrating the pure offensive/defensive advantages, I would've put a higher score into the Monk's Intelligence, since they have such an awesome skill list to learn skills from, compared to Fighters and Barbarians.

[sblock=Monk]Monk Mikken, fighter 4/monk 16, human, 32-point-buy, Tyrion's version + SRD
Str 42, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 8 (monk increases all to Str)
HP 149 (max 1st, half per level afterward)
BAB +16/+11/+6/+1, Initiative +10, AC 34, Fortitude +22, Reflex +22, Will +18
Skill Totals: Balance +14, Jump +41, Sense Motive +15, Swim +29, Tumble +31
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Combat Reflexes, Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike), Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows, Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike), Great Cleave, Improved Trip, Knock-Down, Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike), Power Critical (Unarmed Strike)
Special Abilities: Flurry of blows, unarmed strike, unarmored AC, evasion, still mind, fast movement 80 ft., ki strike (magic), slow fall 80 ft., purity of body, wholeness of body (32 hp), improved evasion, ki strike (lawful), diamond body, greater flurry, abundant step, diamond soul (SR 26), quivering palm (Fort DC 20), ki strike (adamantine)
Possessions: Holy Alchemical-Silver Kama +1, Holy Cold-Iron Kama +1, Belt of Giant's Strength +6, Gloves of Dexterity +6, Amulet of Mighty Fists +5, Bracers of Armor +8, Ring of Protection +5, Boots of Speed, Cloak of Resistance +5, several potions of Fly, Manual of Bodily Health +2 (expended), Manual of Gainful Exercise +5 (expended), Manual of Quickness of Action +1 (expended), Tome of Understanding +4 (expended)
Attack Notes: Deals +2d6 damage against evil creatures with either kama, grapple checks are made at +36/+31/+26/+21, opposed Strength checks for trip attempts are made at +20, any melee attack that deals 10 or more damage provides a free trip attempt, gets +4 to confirm critical hits with an unarmed strike

Attacks: Unarmed strike +38/+38/+38/+33/+28/+23 for 4d6+23 damage (19-20/x2), or hasted unarmed strike +39/+39/+39/+39/+34/+29/+24 for 4d6+23 damage (19-20/x2), or power attack (+/- 4) unarmed strike +34/+34/+34/+29/+24/+19 for 4d6+27 damage (19-20/x2), or hasted power attack (+/- 4) unarmed strike +35/+35/+35/+35/+30/+25/+20 for 4d6+27 damage (19-20/x2),

or silver kama +33/+33/+33/+28/+23/+18 for 1d6+16 damage (20/x2), or hasted silver kama +34/+34/+34/+34/+29/+24/+19 for 1d6+16 damage (20/x2), or power attack (+/- 4) silver kama +29/+29/+29/+24/+19/+14 for 1d6+20 damage (20/x2), or hasted power attack (+/- 4) silver kama +30/+30/+30/+30/+25/+20/+15 for 1d6+20 damage (20/x2),

or cold iron kama +33/+33/+33/+28/+23/+18 for 1d6+17 damage (20/x2), or hasted cold iron kama +34/+34/+34/+34/+29/+24/+19 for 1d6+17 damage (20/x2), or power attack (+/- 4) cold iron kama +29/+29/+29/+24/+19/+14 for 1d6+21 damage (20/x2), or hasted power attack (+/- 4) cold iron kama +30/+30/+30/+30/+25/+20/+15 for 1d6+21 damage (20/x2)



Sample Combat: Mikken attacks a frost giant jarl. He has an overall +5 greater bonus on opposed Strength checks for trip attempts against the frost giant jarl (meaning he has a very decent, but not excellent, chance of tripping the jarl), and an overall +3 grapple bonus compared to the giant (less good chance, but still decent).

Mikken uses his boots of speed and power attacks for 4 points. He is likely to hit 7 times per round (every attack he gets). Mikken probably deals 28d6+171 damage each round (~255 avg.). He has a 10% of threatening a critical hit with each attack, so it's possible he'll threaten a critical hit once every 2 rounds, which will usually be confirmed as a critical hit. I won't go into that now, though.

Every hit is going to do enough damage for the Knock-Down feat to take effect, so Mikken is making 7 free trip attempts per round against the frost giant jarl. Most likely the frost giant jarl goes down at some point in the first round, making further attacks more likely to hit (so Mikken could roll a bit below average on every attack and still hit).

This will probably kill the frost giant jarl by the end of the first round. If the frost giant jarl gets to attack at some point before dying, he'll be making four strikes with his axe and only the first two are likely to hit, while the third attack has a good chance of hitting only if he rolls above average for it, and the fourth attack will only hit if he rolls very high. If the jarl uses his Smite Good ability as a blackguard on the third attack, it's most likely going to hit, if Mikken is good-aligned. Assuming three hits with NO power attack (otherwise just one or two hits is likely), Mikken takes 9d6+3d6+54+8 damage (98 avg.), which hurts terribly but doesn't quite drop him. Mikken will finish off the giant before it can finish him off, though Mikken will need a cleric afterward.

If the frost giant jarl was tripped at some point (which is likely), however, he'll have to make his full-attack while prone, otherwise Mikken will probably finish him off with an attack of opportunity when he tries standing up. While prone, the frost giant jarl takes -4 on his melee attack rolls, so in that case the jarl will likely hit only twice instead of thrice, using his Smite Good ability on the second attack instead of the third. The jarl will then deal only 6d6+2d6+36+8 damage (68 avg.), leaving Mikken less worse for wear (and after the battle Mikken will lessen his injury anyway by 32 points using Wholeness of Body, so he should be able to take down a second opponent of that strength before needing a cleric; he might want to guzzle a potion of Cure Serious Wounds first, but it might not be needed).

The jarl is CR 17 so it's not unreasonable for Mikken to take down one or two by himself. He'd have more difficulty with a balor, pit fiend, or other creature with serious damage reduction and/or regeneration, but his back-up weapons (a holy, alchemical silver kama +1, and a holy, cold iron kama +1) will allow him to be almost as effective against those whom his unarmed strikes would be weaker against (he does roughly 18 or 19 points less damage with the kamas, on average, but the bonus holy damage and the damage-reduction-bypassing capability will make the kamas slightly better against some targets, and really that's all they're for; the unarmed strikes are more accurate and more effective, just not against certain critters with special DR or regeneration).[/sblock]

[sblock=Fighter]Fighter Friedrich, fighter 12/barbarian 8, human, 32-point buy, SRD
Str 34, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8
HP 173 (max 1st, half per level afterward)
BAB +20/+15/+10/+5, Initiative +7, AC 36, Fortitude +21, Reflex +13, Will +9
Skill Totals: Climb +32, Handle Animal +7, Intimidate +22, Jump +32, Listen +20, Ride +12, Survival +10, Swim +29
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Combat Reflexes, Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Great Cleave, Hold The Line, Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Power Critical (Greatsword), Improved Critical (Greatsword), Greater Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knock-Down
Special Abilities: Rage 3/day, fast movement +10 ft., uncanny dodge, trap sense +2, improved uncanny dodge, damage reduction 1/-
Possessions: Holy Flaming Frost Shock Alchemical-Silver Greatsword +5, Holy Cold-Iron Greatsword +1, Axiomatic Holy Adamantine Greatsword +1, Dagger +1, Heavy Fortification Mithral Full Plate +5, Belt of Giant's Strength +6, Gloves of Dexterity +6, Amulet of Natural Armor +5, Ring of Protection +5, Boots of Speed, Cloak of Resistance +4, Handy Haversack, several potions of Fly, Manual of Bodily Health +1 (expended), Manual of Gainful Exercise +5 (expended)
Attack Notes: Deals +2d6 damage against evil creatures with either greatsword, deals +2d6 damage against chaotic creatures with the axiomatic greatsword, grapple checks are made at +32/+27/+22/+17, opposed Strength checks for trip attempts are made at +16, any melee attack that deals 10 or more damage provides a free trip attempt, gets +4 to confirm critical hits with a greatsword, gets an attack of opportunity against anyone who charges at him, can easily bypass most forms of damage reduction by using the appropriate greatsword for the job, usually doesn't use the dagger for combat but keeps it around just in case he needs to cut his way out of a monster's belly or needs a weapon while grappling

Attacks: Silver greatsword +39/+34/+29/+24 for 2d6+3d6+26 damage (17-20/x2), or hasted silver greatsword +40+40/+35/+30/+25 for 2d6+3d6+26 damage (17-20/x2), or power attack (-5/+10) silver greatsword +34/+29/+24/+19 for 2d6+3d6+10+26 damage (17-20/x2), or hasted power attack (-5/+10) silver greatsword +35/+35/+30/+25/+20 for 2d6+3d6+10+26 damage (17-20/x2), or raging silver greatsword +41/+36/+31/+26 for 2d6+3d6+29 damage (17-20/x2), or hasted raging silver greatsword +42/+42/+37/+32/+27 for 2d6+3d6+29 damage (17-20/x2), or raging power attack (-7/+14) silver greatsword +34/+29/+24/+19 for 2d6+3d6+14+29 damage (17-20/x2), or hasted raging power attack (-7/+14) silver greatsword +35/+35/+30/+25/+20 for 2d6+3d6+14+29 damage (17-20/x2)

or cold iron greatsword +35/+30/+25/+20 for 2d6+23 damage (17-20/x2), or hasted cold iron greatsword +36+36/+31/+26/+21 for 2d6+23 damage (17-20/x2), or power attack (-5/+10) cold iron greatsword +30/+25/+20/+15 for 2d6+10+23 damage (17-20/x2), or hasted power attack (-5/+10) cold iron greatsword +31/+31/+26/+21/+16 for 2d6+10+23 damage (17-20/x2), or raging cold iron greatsword +37/+32/+27/+22 for 2d6+26 damage (17-20/x2), or hasted raging cold iron greatsword +38/+38/+33/+28/+23 for 2d6+26 damage (17-20/x2), or raging power attack (-7/+14) cold iron greatsword +30/+25/+20/+15 for 2d6+14+26 damage (17-20/x2), or hasted raging power attack (-7/+14) cold iron greatsword +31/+31/+26/+21/+16 for 2d6+14+26 damage (17-20/x2)

or adamantine greatsword +35/+30/+25/+20 for 2d6+23 damage (17-20/x2), or hasted adamantine greatsword +36+36/+31/+26/+21 for 2d6+23 damage (17-20/x2), or power attack (-5/+10) adamantine greatsword +30/+25/+20/+15 for 2d6+10+23 damage (17-20/x2), or hasted power attack (-5/+10) adamantine greatsword +31/+31/+26/+21/+16 for 2d6+10+23 damage (17-20/x2), or raging adamantine greatsword +37/+32/+27/+22 for 2d6+26 damage (17-20/x2), or hasted raging adamantine greatsword +38/+38/+33/+28/+23 for 2d6+26 damage (17-20/x2), or raging power attack (-7/+14) adamantine greatsword +30/+25/+20/+15 for 2d6+14+26 damage (17-20/x2), or hasted raging power attack (-7/+14) adamantine greatsword +31/+31/+26/+21/+16 for 2d6+14+26 damage (17-20/x2)



Sample Combat: Friedrich attacks a frost giant jarl. He has an overall +1 greater bonus on opposed Strength checks for trip attempts against the frost giant jarl (meaning he has a mediocre chance of tripping the jarl), and an overall -1 grapple bonus compared to the giant (he's not going to fare well in a grapple with the frost giant jarl, but still has a halfway decent chance of escape if it comes to that).

Friedrich uses his boots of speed, enters a rage, and power attacks for 7 points. He is likely to hit 5 times per round (every attack he gets), though the last attack of the round will only hit if he rolls 10 or higher. Friedrich probably deals 10d6+15d6+215 damage each round (~290 avg.), but 10d6 of it (from the flaming and frost qualities) is ineffectual against the frost giant jarl (cold immunity and the jarl's magic ring), so actually about 260 damage is dealt. This is 5 points more, on average, than Mikken deals against the same foe, but either of them will take down the frost giant jarl in 1 round most likely; however, it is enough difference that Friedrich is likely to force a save against massive damage with each hit (whereas Mikken has to roll above average on damage to do so), although the frost giant jarl is going to make his save on any roll short of a natural 1. Friedrich has a 20% of threatening a critical hit with each attack, so it's possible he'll threaten a critical hit once every 1 or 2 rounds, which will usually be confirmed as a critical hit. I won't go into that now, though.

Every hit is going to do enough damage for the Knock-Down feat to take effect, so Friedrich is making 5 free trip attempts per round against the frost giant jarl; 2 fewer attempts than Mikken, and at a lower bonus. It is somewhat likely that the frost giant jarl goes down at some point in the first round, making further attacks more likely to hit (so Friedrich could roll a bit below average on his last one or two attacks and probably still hit).

This will most likely kill the frost giant jarl by the end of the first round. If the frost giant jarl gets to attack at some point before dying, he'll be making four strikes with his axe and only the first one is likely to hit, while the second attack has a good chance of hitting only if he rolls above average for it, and the third attack will only hit if he rolls high; the fourth attack only hits on a natural 20. If the jarl uses his Smite Good ability as a blackguard on the second attack, it's most likely going to hit, if Friedrich is good-aligned. Assuming two hits with 3 points of power attack, and factoring in Friedrich's barbarian damage reduction, Friedrich takes 6d6+2d6+36+12+8-2 damage (78 avg.), which hurts but only takes off a little under half of Friedrich's hit points. Friedrich will finish off the giant before it can finish him off, though Friedrich may need a cleric afterward.

If the frost giant jarl was tripped at some point (which is possible but not as likely as it was with Mikken), however, he'll have to make his full-attack while prone, otherwise Friedrich will probably finish him off with an attack of opportunity when he tries standing up. While prone, the frost giant jarl takes -4 on his melee attack rolls, so in that case the jarl will likely hit only once instead of twice, using his Smite Good ability on the first attack instead of the second, and using 4 points of power attack instead of 3. The jarl will then deal only 3d6+1d6+18+8+8-1 damage (45 avg.), leaving Friedrich less worse for wear. Friedrich will most likely (barring a string of terrible dice rolls for him; his heavy-fortification armor at least keeps him safe from sudden doom by critical hit or sneak attack) be able to take down a second frost giant jarl without difficulty, but will probably be in serious need of a cleric afterward, or at least a handful of Cure Serious Wounds potions. Mikken would be slightly less hurt after the first battle just due to Wholeness of Body, but would be in similar condition to Friedrich after a second such battle.

The jarl is CR 17 so it's not unreasonable for Friedrich to take down one or two by himself (more if he's lucky). He'd have a bit more difficulty with a balor, pit fiend, or similar creatures, but less difficulty than Mikken, and his back-up weapons will allow him to be almost as effective against those whom his main greatsword would be weaker against. Friedrich would face similar energy resistances or immunities against many other high-level foes, but against the occasional foe lacking them, Friedrich will be a bit more effective than Mikken (well, a bit more effective than he already is, which is just a bit).[/sblock]

[sblock=Notes]Friedrich is less well-equipped to handle opponents with DR X/bludgeoning (he'll just have to power through it and do less damage), but will handle most foes as well or better than Mikken (though only a little better). Friedrich also delivers critical hits slightly more often. However, Friedrich loses a bit of his power when he isn't raging, and a bit more still if he already raged in the encounter (and is fatigued as a result), and suffers an AC penalty during his rage (making his AC no better than Mikken's during that time), as well as a minor AC penalty from the Dex-reduction of fatigue afterward. Friedrich can opt to use Combat Expertise for a bit more AC, but only when he isn't raging, and he'll be less accurate, less damaging, and less trip-capable when doing so (for lack of Rage's Strength bonus at least).

Mikken's got Deflect Arrows though to stop one ranged attack per round, while Friedrich has no special defenses against ranged attackers (and he's far, far slower than Mikken, so no chance of catching up to any ranged attackers unless he's using a Fly potion; I'm not even sure if his Strength is high enough to fly under the load of his armor and weapons and other gear, but it's possible, since the armor is mithral). So they both have certain defensive advantages. Friedrich is a tad more effective when making a single attack each round after charging or otherwise moving, but Mikken is capable of moving much further at the same time and has the capacity to make more attacks of opportunity per round.

Friedrich has just all of his AC when caught flat-footed, thanks to his barbarian levels for Uncanny Dodge and his abundance of armor-like AC bonuses, but Friedrich's touch AC is very mediocre at best. Mikken has awesome touch AC, especially against incorporeal attacks thanks to his Bracers of Armor, but his flat-footed AC is slightly worse than Friedrich's touch AC, though Mikken's higher initiative means he's less likely to be flat-footed when attacked (he'll usually be taking his first turn near the beginning of each battle, so only surprise attacks and the occasional Dex-monkey rogue will manage to strike him flat-footed; his Sense Motive check will usually prevent feint attempts, though).

Friedrich has a modest advantage in hit points, but his saving throws are lower, and he lacks Mikken's Improved Evasion, Spell Resistance, immunities, and such (though his armor does give immunity to crits and sneak attacks at least, which Mikken lacks), so they're probably kind of tied on defensive capabilities (I think Mikken's a bit superior on those, though, with his Spell Resistance of 26, Abundant Step, and greater saving throws).

Mikken also has a minor chance of killing one foe per week with a single attack, though Quivering Palm, though he lacks Friedrich's holy weapons which deal more damage against most foes a goodly adventurer is likely to face. So Friedrich's got a modest, but not large, advantage in offensive power (Mikken is at least better at taking down multiple foes, tripping, 'geeking the mage' to use a funny Shadowrun term, and vastly more effective in a grapple).

However, Friedrich has vastly less mobility (especially once he runs out of Fly potions) and just generally does less stuff than Mikken. All Friedrich does is hit things with a sharp stick, and clank around in armor trying to get somewhere. Friedrich can scare folks through his intimidation, and he's kind of good at it, but not awesome. Friedrich can deal with common animals somewhat, but he's no great animal tamer or trainer, and he's only moderately skillful at riding. He can get by in the wilderness without much trouble, but he's no great hunter or survivor, and his armor will only be a hindrance in trying to get through uncomfortable environments, whereas Mikken can wear just whatever clothing he needs to be comfortable and his movement isn't going to be hindered; Mikken can cover great distances in short periods of time, as well, and is much better suited to handling rugged terrain, mountains, cliffs, etc.; though Mikken is not a good climber (he does have an untrained total bonus though of +16), he is an incredible jumper and can use his Abundant Step occasionally to get past a large gap or sheer vertical surface. Neither Friedrich nor Mikken has any good skills for making a living outside of adventuring or guard-duty, but Mikken can certainly do a lot more stuff as an adventurer and traveler.[/sblock]

Second example, 8th-level

[sblock=Monk 2]Monk Mikken, fighter 4/monk 4, human, 32-point-buy, Tyrion's version + SRD
Str 22, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8 (monk increases all to Str)
HP 57 (max 1st, half per level afterward)
BAB +7/+2, Initiative +6, AC 12, Fortitude +11, Reflex +8, Will +6
Skill Totals: Balance +9, Jump +15, Sense Motive +5, Swim +13, Tumble +10
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Combat Reflexes, Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike), Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows, Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike)
Special Abilities: Flurry of blows, unarmed strike, unarmored AC, evasion, still mind, fast movement 40 ft., ki strike (magic), slow fall 20 ft.
Possessions: Alchemical-Silver Kama +1, Cold-Iron Kama +1, Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, Boots of Speed, Cloak of Resistance +1, potion of Fly, 2 vials of alchemist's fire, 2 vials of acid
Attack Notes: Grapple checks are made at +17/+12

Attacks: Unarmed strike +15/+15/+10 for 2d6+9 damage (20/x2), or hasted unarmed strike +16/+16/+16/+11 for 2d6+9 damage (20/x2), or power attack (+/- 4) unarmed strike +11/+11/+6 for 2d6+9+4 damage (20/x2), or hasted power attack (+/- 4) unarmed strike +12/+12/+12/+7 for 2d6+9+4 damage (20/x2),

or silver kama +14/+14/+9 for 1d6+6 damage (20/x2), or hasted silver kama +15/+15/+15/+10 for 1d6+6 damage (20/x2), or power attack (+/- 4) silver kama +10/+10/+5 for 1d6+6+4 damage (20/x2), or hasted power attack (+/- 4) silver kama +11/+11/+11/+6 for 1d6+6+4 damage (20/x2),

or cold iron kama +14/+14/+9 for 1d6+7 damage (20/x2), or hasted cold iron kama +15/+15/+15/+10 for 1d6+7 damage (20/x2), or power attack (+/- 4) cold iron kama +10/+10/+5 for 1d6+7+4 damage (20/x2), or hasted power attack (+/- 4) cold iron kama +11/+11/+11/+6 for 1d6+7+4 damage (20/x2)



Sample Combat: Mikken attacks a megaraptor. He has an overall +2 grapple bonus compared to the megaraptor (some decent chance of success if he ends up grappling the creature).

Mikken uses his boots of speed and power attacks for 4 points. He is likely to hit with every attack (4 of them). Mikken probably deals 8d6+52 damage in the first round (~76 avg.). He has a 5% of threatening a critical hit with each attack, so it's possible he'll threaten a critical hit once every 5 rounds, which will usually be confirmed as a critical hit, but it wouldn't happen often enough to matter in most fights.

This will most likely kill the megaraptor during the second round. The megaraptor will try to rip him apart with all its claws and teeth. Assuming four hits from the natural weapons, Mikken takes 2d4+2d6+1d8+11 damage (25 avg.), which hurts but only takes off a little under half of Mikken's hit points. Mikken will finish off the megaraptor before it can finish him off. He could take on a second one afterward and probably win, but it would be a very close victory, and he couldn't possibly handle two at the same time.

The megaraptor is CR 6 so it's a bit weaker than Mikken, but there don't seem to be any CR 7 or CR 8 creatures that would be a fair challenge (read: not automatically deadly or too-easy a victory).[/sblock]

[sblock=Fighter 2]Fighter Friedrich, fighter 4/barbarian 4, human, 32-point buy, SRD
Str 20, Dex 10, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8
HP 67 (max 1st, half per level afterward)
BAB +8/+3, Initiative +4, AC 19, Fortitude +10, Reflex +2, Will +1
Skill Totals: Climb +10, Handle Animal +5, Intimidate +10, Jump +4, Listen +10, Ride +5, Survival +3, Swim +4
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Combat Reflexes, Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Hold The Line, Power Critical (Greatsword)
Special Abilities: Rage 2/day, fast movement +10 ft., uncanny dodge, trap sense +1
Possessions: Flaming Alchemical-Silver Greatsword +1, Masterwork Full Plate, Ring of Protection +1, Boots of Haste, potion of Fly, 2 vials of alchemist's fire, 2 vials of alchemist's fire, 2 vials of acid
Attack Notes: Grapple checks are made at +13/+8, gets +4 to confirm critical hits with a greatsword, gets an attack of opportunity against anyone who charges at him

Attacks: Silver greatsword +15/+10 for 2d6+1d6+10 damage (19-20/x2), or power attack (-2/+4) silver greatsword +13/+8 for 2d6+1d6+10+4 damage (19-20/x2), or hasted silver greatsword +16/+16/+11 for 2d6+1d6+10 damage (19-20/x2), or hasted power attack (-2/+4) silver greatsword +14/+14/+9 for 2d6+1d6+10+4 damage (19-20/x2), or raging silver greatsword +17/+12 for 2d6+1d6+13 damage (19-20/x2), or raging power attack (-5/+10) silver greatsword +12/+7 for 2d6+1d6+13+10 damage (19-20/x2), or hasted raging silver greatsword +18/+18/+13 for 2d6+1d6+13 damage (19-20/x2), or hasted raging power attack (-5/+10) silver greatsword +13/+13/+8 for 2d6+1d6+13+10 damage (19-20/x2)



Sample Combat: Friedrich attacks a megaraptor. He has an overall -3 grapple bonus compared to the megaraptor (so a very bad idea to try grappling it, though he would have a halfway decent chance of escaping a grapple with it).

Friedrich activates his boots of speed, enters a rage, and power attacks for 5 points. He is likely to hit with all three of his attacks. Friedrich probably deals 6d6+3d6+39+30 damage in the first round (~96 avg.). He has a 10% of threatening a critical hit with each attack, so it's possible he'll threaten a critical hit once every 3 or 4 rounds, which will usually be confirmed as a critical hit, but it wouldn't happen often enough to matter in many fights.

This will most likely kill the megaraptor during the first round. Assuming the megaraptor wins initiative or somehow survives the first barrage, it will try to rip Friedrich apart with all its claws and teeth. Assuming four hits from the natural weapons (I'll assume it charged him, using Pounce for a full-attack, and +2 on the attack rolls for charging, against Friedrich's raging AC), Friedrich takes 2d4+2d6+1d8+11 damage (25 avg.), which hurts but only takes off a little over one-third of Friedrich's hit points. Friedrich will easily finish off the megaraptor before it can finish him off. He could take on a second one afterward and win, but a third megaraptor just might be pushing it, and Friedrich couldn't possibly handle two at a time (not any better than Mikken anyway).[/sblock]

[sblock=Notes 2]Friedrich does some more damage, but not a lot more, and is only marginally more accurate. His AC is better but still not very good for his level, due to his focus on offense. It does help a bit, just not as much with his use of Rage and its associated -2 AC penalty. He's a bit tougher but not enough to make any serious difference, just enough to survive one or two more hits from a mook. Friedrich has one less attack per round so he's somewhat less effective against mooks compared to Mikken.

It's basically a similar situation to the higher-level versions of these characters, but Mikken is a bit less noticeably close in power, because he hasn't accumulated much Strength yet nor any AC boosts to shore up his main area of weakness; Friedrich's got his weaknesses too, though, like his terrible Reflex and Will saving throws, leaving him very susceptible to even low-level mooks hurling fear effects, compulsions, or the like. Friedrich's also got horrible touch AC at this level, and none of the few special defenses he is later able to afford, and he can't rely on Rage or the Boots of Speed very often.

Once he uses them up in one or two battles of the day, he's losing 7 points of damage per attack, and losing one-third of his number of attacks per round, which will hurt. Mikken on the other hand loses only one-quarter of his attacks per round, and losing no damage bonuses (though he may be a bit more likely to power attack for 1 more point when using the Boots of Speed, he doesn't get the 2-for-1 ratio of benefit that Friedrich does from doing so). Once the Boots are used up for the day, Mikken is missing out on 19 damage per round, on average, while Friedrich, with the Boots and Rage expended in probably the same amount of time (unless they have one really long battle), is missing out on 50 damage per round, on average, dropping him beneath Mikken in damage output for the rest of the day's battles (31 points of damage lost beyond the amount that Mikken loses out on, more than the roughly-20-point gap in damage per round when Friedrich uses Rage and Haste).[/sblock]

.......this took a lot longer than I thought. I hate doing full analyses, I don't know why I feel compelled to examine things so thoroughly. Anyway, point is, the houserule makes Monks too strong since they are already capable of so much more than a Fighter or Barbarian to begin with; a few points of ability increase aren't unbalancing, but 5 or 10 points is too much in this case (4 or fewer increases would probably be fine).
 

robberbaron

First Post
I disagree with the basic premise that Monks are underpowered.
Perhaps, compared to some of the revved-up twink classes around, but not compared to the core classes.

Granted, BAB and HPs don't keep pace with the fighter but the Monk will get other stuff to balance this.
How useful is Poison Immunity? Bloody useful - it has kept my Monk alive in WLD.
Fast movement? Great for ramping up the running jump bonus (+37 at 13th level) and for spring attacking out of nowhere.
Slow Fall? Haven't used it yet but sounds goodt for getting out of fights in an unexpected way.
Flurry/Greater Flurry? At 13th I have more full-action attacks than a fighter, doing the same damage as a greatsword.

Good class, I like it as it is.
 

eamon

Explorer
@Arkandus, concerning 20th level stats: Your fighter can use a shield: namely, say, An animated, arrow-deflecting, +5 Heavy Mithral shield for an additional 7AC, and for protection against ranged weapons. In order to help your allies you could add the "arrow catching" ability too, which actually diverts ranged attacks to hit you. Since shield penalties still apply, this is not an option for the Monk - he could however use a ring of shield.

I have the feeling that more is missing, which would make quite a difference. Both barbarian and monk qualify for Melee Weapon Master, and thus would likely take it. And maybe there are other things that could be changed too.

I'm not a fan of 20th level comparisons because it's so hard to be comprehensive, and I never reach that level anyways. maybe a 14th level would be useful?
 

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