D&D 5E A simple houserule for martial/caster balance.

[Joshy]

Did you mean "casters" here? I think you might have meant martials--but that would be just silly.

Regardless, casters have other things they can do with their spells and can always attack with weapons if necessary. Frankly, I loved seeing the cleric in my game actually attacking with a warhammer instead of just spamming cantrips over and over!

Martials attack with weapons--it is pretty much their "thing".

No I ment casters because if damaging cantrips deal to much damage then casters need to stay away from weapons as well.

 

[DND_Reborn]

No I ment casters because if damaging cantrips deal to much damage then casters need to stay away from weapons as well.

That... makes no sense to me, but ok.

 

[DND_Reborn]

If the PH stated in the fighter description that, once you reach a certain level, fighters are capable of feats beyond "the real world".

Not just stated it, but designed them that way... it would be nice.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Not just stated it, but designed them that way... it would be nice.

I feel they need to do both, otherwise people are going to continue with their original assumptions of what a fighter can do, and the irritation continues.

 

[Joshy]

I think creating damaging cantrips at all was a mistake. Leave the utility cantrips at will, and make a wizard who runs out of spells use weapons like everybody else.

That... makes no sense to me, but ok.

Do either of you think cantrips deal to much damage?

If so just change them, make it were cantrips don't increase in damage but gain a bonus to damage equal to the spellcasting stat modifier.

Example: Firebolt 1d10+Int/Wis/Cha

 

[ECMO3]

Level Up dropped Fireball's damage to commensurate with other 3rd level spells. I feel it really opens up some variety in what people choose.

Fireball's damage is higher than it should be, but I don't see it as a problem because it is not e very strong spell compared to other. Unless you are an evoker with sculpt spells, it is not easy to use effectively, and while damage is high other spells usually work better.

The main issue with fireball is there are a ton of good spells at 3rd level - Fear, Counterspell, Fly, animate dead, 4 different summon spells and on the rare occasion you have enough room to cast fireball effectively and get 3+ enemies, Erupting Earth will usually work better, trading a little bit of damage for much better control .... it is tough to fit fireball in there and when you compare it to those it is pretty weak.

 

[FrogReaver]

Do either of you think cantrips deal to much damage?

If so just change them, make it were cantrips don't increase in damage but gain a bonus to damage equal to the spellcasting stat modifier.

Example: Firebolt 1d10+Int/Wis/Cha

IMO, one design problem with cantrips is that in later levels they outperform bows (on everything but a max dex build). So even when you have a martial that has a moderate but not max dex (14 to 16) the cantrip from the full caster eventually outperforms that. So even if a str based martial wanted to pick up and use a bow, the caster is doing more damage with their cantrip. It's one thing that further shoehorns martials into doubling down on their specific weapon type - further removing a little versatility they otherwise could have had.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Do either of you think cantrips deal to much damage?

If so just change them, make it were cantrips don't increase in damage but gain a bonus to damage equal to the spellcasting stat modifier.

Example: Firebolt 1d10+Int/Wis/Cha

I don't think they do too much damage. I do think them being always available regardless of circumstance is a problem. But mostly I don't like the aesthetic. Its more overtly magical than I prefer.

 

[James Gasik]

DND_Reborn, thanks for chiming in with your experience. As I said, I had to go off what I've seen, and that was concentration buffs really compete with other spells casters want to use. That some groups use more buffs on other party members than the ones I've seen helps me to see it's not a universal problem.

ECMO3, that kind of reinforces my point. You can totally play a Cleric who functions that way, and at least until Extra Attack is available, perform as well as a Fighter without much fuss. Since everyone has the same attack chance now, the only thing that differentiates classes that can "fight good" comes down to defenses and # of attacks.

Micah_Sweet, the issue with making Fighters superhuman is that is not what many people seem to want! When you create options that allow for it, you get very vocal complaints that "the Fighter is not superhuman. He can be superhuman in your games, but not in mine!".

The reason why damage cantrips exists is because some feel that "wizard attacking with magic" is cooler than "wizard attacking with crossbow". Until higher levels, there isn't much difference. The fact that damage cantrips scale, on the other hand, isn't too problematic by itself, since it means that the wizard can always contribute meaningfully...but it does became pretty evident when you look at the Cleric that something is wrong.

The Cleric doesn't have good attack cantrips. If they have no attack spells, they are meant to use weapons. But without extra attacks, the only benefit they get comes from their level 8 Class Feature.

Speaking of the Cleric, it's not written that they use their spells to make other players stronger, but if you look at their spell list, the intent is clear. Also, consider this. Using a 3e example-

What is better? Using your action to cast Bull's Strength on the Fighter, who can use it's benefit to attack on his turn (and may get more attacks than you) or using your action to cast it on yourself, when you won't be able to claim the benefit until your next turn?

And yet, most "Clericzilla" discussions usually center around the Cleric using their spell slots thusly. When asked how they do this in combat, the answer is "well they pre-buff", or use non-core elements to cheat action economy or spell durations.

I've played versions of D&D for decades, and rarely do I see groups even have an opportunity to pre-buff. It's usually "hey here's monsters". People will say "well this spell lasts for 20 minutes, surely it will last two combats"- but when is that a given? You have no idea how long it will take to run into another encounter, let alone one where the spell's benefit is necessary.

You could turn the corner and find two Hobgoblins, 20, or nothing but another trap lined hallway (darned Kobolds).

 

[Joshy]

I don't think they do too much damage. I do think them being always available regardless of circumstance is a problem. But mostly I don't like the aesthetic. Its more overtly magical than I prefer.

So it's more fluff than mechanics you have a problem with?
You could just give a version of Shillelagh that works with all proficient weapons in place of a damaging cantrips.

IMO, one design problem with cantrips is that in later levels they outperform bows (on everything but a max dex build). So even when you have a martial that has a moderate but not max dex (14 to 16) the cantrip from the full caster eventually outperforms that. So even if a str based martial wanted to pick up and use a bow, the caster is doing more damage with their cantrip. It's one thing that further shoehorns martials into doubling down on their specific weapon type - further removing a little versatility they otherwise could have had.

You could use thrown weapons, but I do understand where you are coming from.
My main problem was range attack options for the barbarians and paladins

I use a homebrew atlatl for the ranged strength users.

The main problem to me is that the pure martials lack complexity and versatility.

I have recently made three classes to replace the pure martials classes and so far my players seem to love them. I felt that it would be better to improve pure martials instead of weakening casters.