D&D 4E A simulationist DM has a few reluctant questions about 4E

[ZetaStriker]

Not to mention the fact that there are non-combat Utility powers that are present in the game, which even voids Tiberius' definition of explicit. They aren't common, mind you, but there are a few for just about every class, I believe.

 

[Tav_Behemoth]

You don't magically get encounter abilities back every encounter, you have to rest for 5 minutes.

Note that this is different from 3.5:

A barbarian can fly into a rage only once per encounter.

where the definition of encounter is entirely up to the DM. Personally, I'd find that less problematic. The way that 4e mechanics push players to have their PCs sit down and sharpen their swords for five minutes after every fight introduces a jarring conflict with what would actually make sense to the characters in any situation where things are time-critical or reinforcements or wandering monsters might arrive at any moment.

So why does 4e require the short rest? Two possibilities:

- Having characters instantly refresh as soon as a combat ends would be too much of a strain on versimilitude

- Having the DM decide when an encounter is over leaves too much room for "inter-table variation," as the RPGA jargon has it.

My bet is on the latter. There's little evidence that realism is a concern in 4e design, while it seems to me that a top priority was standardizing and codifying everything to meet the needs of organized play and other massively-multiplayer situations in which latitude in DM judgement is seen as a liability.

Still, I wish they'd come up with a way to pin down the definition of when encounter powers refresh that didn't make it so difficult to design a chase scene, or a dungeon where monsters are expected to react intelligently.

 

[LostSoul]

5) Have most of the non-combat abilities of monsters, creatures and NPCs really been removed as previews seemed to indicate they would be?

Not really.

There are no abilities for monsters that exist outside of an encounter. Outside of an encounter, DM fiat reigns supreme. Therefore, monsters can do whatever the DM wants them to do outside an encounter.

Consider yourself free to apply your own judgement in order to maintain your simulation.

 

[andarilhor]

1) Is there a way to remain bad at a skill with advancing levels? I know that all skills (and ability bonuses, etc.) advance automatically at 1/2 point per level, so on the surface of it, I would have to assume that the answer is negative, but perhaps there is a flaw system, or some other system to enable characters to remain bad at given skill(s).

In a certain way... some skill uses can only be used by trained characters, so there is some kind of weakness to the ones who not are trained.

2) Is it true that most of the problematic but interesting spells and effects are gone (a select few being converted to rituals) or modified beyond recognition as seemed to be the case from the previews? (e.g. Baleful Polymorph)

Something like that.

3) Are the per-encounter powers explicit per-encounter powers, or implicit per-encounter powers?

Yes!

4) Since hit points are now even more abstract than before, is there a system for more persistent injuries (that only heal slowly or with the aid of magic)?

There are attacks which aim for healing surges, like the ones which caused level damage in previous editions. There is Poison and Disease system as well, not to mention conditions are much more part of the game then ever!

5) Have most of the non-combat abilities of monsters, creatures and NPCs really been removed as previews seemed to indicate they would be?

Yes! Non-combat abilities fall in the roleplaying dimension, so is to be roleplayed, not ruled, that is the 4e phylosophy.

Hope has helped!

 

[mattdm]

Note that this is different from 3.5:

where the definition of encounter is entirely up to the DM. Personally, I'd find that less problematic. The way that 4e mechanics push players to have their PCs sit down and sharpen their swords for five minutes after every fight introduces a jarring conflict with what would actually make sense to the characters in any situation where things are time-critical or reinforcements or wandering monsters might arrive at any moment.

When I run, I anticipate allowing 5 minutes of out-of-initiative exploration to count as resetting encounter powers too, when it makes sense to do so. I'm not going to penalize my players for saying "whew, we survived — let's press on!"

 

[am181d]

Still, I wish they'd come up with a way to pin down the definition of when encounter powers refresh that didn't make it so difficult to design a chase scene, or a dungeon where monsters are expected to react intelligently.

I don't get your logic. Surely, the current rules increase the drama of chase scenes and intelligent monster behavior. (I believe the DMG even has rules for determining when monsters hear the PCs fighting in other sections of the dungeon.)

Players are generally better off taking a breather between fights, but that won't always be an option. That's a feature, not a bug.

 

[Tav_Behemoth]

Players are generally better off taking a breather between fights, but that won't always be an option. That's a feature, not a bug.

If that's a feature, there should be guidelines telling you to use it. Is there something in the DMG that talks about how you should adjust the difficulty of encounters that happen under extreme time pressure so that the PCs are assumed not to take short rests between fights? (Or, for that matter, how to bump up the difficulty of wilderness encounters in which conserving your daily is less of an issue because you expect to need to sleep before the next day of adventuring anyway?) That's not a rhetorical question - being a playtester means I've often lost track of what is and isn't in there.

Here's an actual play-based argument that it's a bug:

Our party is in hot pursuit of a group of dog-men who've taken a villager captive. We fight a series of battles as they send out assault teams to delay us, or sentries that they've posted outside the cave where they've taken the girl. At no point do we feel like we can risk her being killed while we take five and have a smoke break, so we press on. Finally we make it into the altar where they're about to sacrifice her to advance their vile designs.

Narratively, this is the most exciting encounter of the series. Mechanically, it's the dullest. We've blown all our interesting encounter powers, so the combat is a long grind of either this at-will or that one. We're on the edge of death, so that's exciting, but we didn't get there in the way 4e assumes. No one is even close to out of healing surges; we're just lacking the encounter powers (second wind, healing word, etc) that would let us tap their surges. So the sturdy defender doesn't benefit from having more healing surges than the frail wizard; both are equally on the edge of dying. And when we do drop, there's no dramatic battlefield revival; no one can use the Heal skill to let the fallen use their second wind, because we've all used up our second wind.

This final battle was awesome roleplaying because we had to race against time to reach it, and fight a bunch of lesser encounters as part of the buildup. But it really felt like, moment to moment, the system was punishing us for acting in-character.

 

[brianm]

There aren't any good fantasy books I can name where buff-scry-teleport was the protagonists' main strategy.

I heartily recommend the Vlad Taltos novels of Steven Brust to you.

- Brian

 

[Sashi]

Encounter powers that create lasting effects last 5 minutes or less

the short rest lasts 5 minutes, to ensure that all effects from previous powers expire.

It would be nice if the DMG had something about "you can allow characters to apply the effect of a short rest in any time as long as you reset all power effects"

 

[LostSoul]

If that's a feature, there should be guidelines telling you to use it. Is there something in the DMG that talks about how you should adjust the difficulty of encounters that happen under extreme time pressure so that the PCs are assumed not to take short rests between fights?

Yes - in the sidebar "When is an Encounter Over?" on page 41. It says that you should treat the multiple encounters as a single one.

This means that, when designing the encounter, you should make sure that your encounter is actually the level you think it is. If you want it to be a level 4 encounter, all the XP in all the different encounters should total 875 XP.