A Thought on Turn-Based Movement

[Water Bob]

You may have run into this situation before: Your players have their PCs spread out across a corridor in some old, dusty, crumbling ruin. They're approaching a right angle turn, and from around the corner comes an enemy guard.

Initiative is rolled. The PCs want to stop the guard from raising the alarm, but the guard wins initiative. The guard bails. He's elbows and boot soles, running back in the opposite direction.

Initial distance between the PCs and the guard was 40 feet. But, now the guard has moved 120 feet, making it a total of 160 feet. The most the PCs can move and still attack is 30 feet, meaning that range will be 130 feet.

The problem that players sometime have with this is the movement. The argument: "I've got my spear in my hand! I can't chunk it at him before he gets to the end of his movement, a full 6 seconds later?"

This can be exceptionally frustrating when the foe run right past (but not in an AoO space) a PC holding a distance weapon. "He just ran past me. Range was 30 foot. Why can't I attack him there instead of waiting until he's 90 more feet away from me?"

Thus is one of the ugly faults of turn based combat in a game system that allows a character to take a full 6 seconds of action before the next character moves.





I've got a thought. I'm still thinking about it, because I'm not sure if implementing the house rule is worth the fuss.

The idea is to maintain the game round just the way it is except for movement. On a character's initiative count, he can only move a distance of 1x or 2x Speed. That way, a typically 60 foot charge is still easy to play. A character can move and attack. Or, a character can move 2x Speed without performing other actions.

We're basically allowing the play of half movement and actions, then the second half of the round goes to allowing characters that move 3x or 4x Speed to finish their movement. All other standard rules remain.




Looking at the scenario above, let's say the guard came around the corner, and initiative was thrown, with the guard winning nish. The guard would move 60' and indicate that he's going to run all-out, completing the second part of his movement after everybody else has moved.

So, if you move 30 feet and attack, you're good. Or, you can move 60 and do no more actions (you can attack on a charge, though), allowing everybody else to complete actions, before it comes back to you to finish any other movement at 90 or 120 feet.



What do you think about this. Easy, simple idea? Or, too fussy and not worth the effort--the original rules are fine.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

The original rules are fine. If the player wanted to throw his character's ranged weapon when the guard came in range, he should have readied an action. (I know this is explicitly possible in 3e and 4e D&D, but I don't remember offhand if it's called out in other versions.)

If the guard won initiative, then the character didn't react fast enough to tag him and the guard got past in the initial rush of surprise.

 

[Sunseeker]

I'm not seeing the problem other than my opinion on the fact that 4x movement on a full-round run is way too much movement.

But it fits with the priorities of the guard. He sees trouble, and runs to sound the alarm.

The players had not declared they had readied any actions so unfortunately that's their loss. Limiting movement initially isn't going to make combat play out any better. It's just going to mean that lone guardsmen get the snot beat out of them, and players who are surprised by a dragon get TPKed.

 

[Greenfield]

In 1e/2e it was common practice to handle the people with multiple attacks by splitting their actions: Attack 1, enemy action, attack 2.

While it slows things down to an extent, I could see applying something similar to situations like the one you describe. Enemy gets half his action, PCs get to act *also as a split action*, then NPC finishes.

In the scene you described, Initiative is rolled. NPC gets to move half his move, which in his case means 60 feet of run-like-hell. PCs get to take a single standard action or a single move action, or a single-move-charge if they can. NPC takes the other half of his action. PCs get to take what action they have left.

Now, unless the party has a BARB or someone under Haste, they're still not going to be able to catch him on a Charge, but ranged attacks will fire at the closer range.

Now why won't they be able to Charge? Aside from the problem of having to round that corner first, and thus not having that straight line required, it's a matter of fairness. If the guy is as fast as they are (same base movement) and he has a head start then there's no way they should be able to catch up to him at any point in this sprint. And he isn't doing anything but running, while they're drawing/prepping weapons as they go, and/or pulling components and preparing spells as they move. While a two-to-one edge in movement might seem a bit extreme, the fact that he had a straight run and they had to round that corner is certainly going to make a difference. He can quad-move and they're limited to a double. Sucks to be them.

If you allow them the quad move, fine, his sprint should be as continuous as theirs is. Reversing Zeno's Paradox isn't a good solution.

 

[sheadunne]

Run
You can run as a full-round action. (If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step.) When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you’re in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.

You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each round in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running. A character who has run to his limit must rest for 1 minute (10 rounds) before running again. During a rest period, a character can move no faster than a normal move action.

You can’t run across difficult terrain or if you can’t see where you’re going.

A run represents a speed of about 12 miles per hour for an unencumbered human.

He'd probably be only 100 feet away, well within range of bows and medium ranged spells. However if he had turned down a passageway who knows where he's gone, in which case the changed rules won't really help.

If the players knew of the possibility of guards, they probably should have been sneaking or scouting, which would have given them a surprise round.

I'm just not sure there's a problem here that needs to be addressed.

 

[Water Bob]

The original rules are fine. If the player wanted to throw his character's ranged weapon when the guard came in range, he should have readied an action.

It was the first round, so there was no way for the PC to ready an action.

The PC could throw his spear on his turn, but he'd be at -24 to hit. Let's go ahead and call that impossible.

If the guard won initiative, then the character didn't react fast enough to tag him and the guard got past in the initial rush of surprise.

The way the turn-based rules are written (not all turn-based rules are like this), there is hardly ever a situation where someone who runs, full-out, will be able to be attacked. As you said, a Ready Action is necessary.

I'm not seeing the problem other than my opinion on the fact that 4x movement on a full-round run is way too much movement.

Exactly. 4x Speed is a long, freakin' distance to move. If you've got a hand axe or a spear at hand, ready to go, and someone starts running from you, shouldn't it at least be possible to hit. A -4 or -6 penalty, even, would be fine.

But, let's say you're parlaying with someone, and then he breaks and runs. He's standing 20 feet from you. You've got a hunting spear (10' increment). Once the foe starts to run, that signals the start of combat (he just became a combatant), and he wins nish.

He runs 120 feet + 20 distance = 140. On your turn, you can move up 30 feet then cast your spear. Your distance is 110 feet! That's -20 on the throw! You can't hit him!

I'm thinking that there should be a chance.

Limiting movement initially isn't going to make combat play out any better.

I'm not sure if I agree, here. Most of the time, because of terrain or the character taking other actions, like an attack, characters typically don't move more than 1x or 2x Speed. So, the only time this will be an issue is when a character can run in a straight line in normal, unhindered terrain.

Therefore, using this house rule, it won't pop up ever fight--just when someone runs.

And, it seems fair to me because we're basically allowing enemies to attack at the half-way point in their movement, if they run.

In 1e/2e it was common practice to handle the people with multiple attacks by splitting their actions: Attack 1, enemy action, attack 2.

Yes, I remember.

And, as I described above, charges are still possible and played exactly the same because the max charge is 2x Speed.

 

[JamesonCourage]

But, let's say you're parlaying with someone, and then he breaks and runs. He's standing 20 feet from you. You've got a hunting spear (10' increment). Once the foe starts to run, that signals the start of combat (he just became a combatant), and he wins nish.

He runs 120 feet + 20 distance = 140. On your turn, you can move up 30 feet then cast your spear. Your distance is 110 feet! That's -20 on the throw! You can't hit him!

I'm thinking that there should be a chance.

Not weighing in on the run thing, but just so you know, according to the SRD (and I'm almost positive 3.5, though my book is home while I'm in San Francisco): "A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments." So I don't think he'd get to throw it at the guy, unless you house-ruled the max range increments. And, if you're doing that, why not lessen the penalty rather than worry about the action economy? It's a lot less fiddly, in my opinion.

I mean, I get why the action economy and turns bugs you. I changed it in my game (based on 3.5), but it is more fiddly. Just a heads up. As always, play what you like

 

[Water Bob]

"A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments." So I don't think he'd get to throw it at the guy...

Absolutely right, which strengthens my point. Shouldn't he have a chance to throw on those circumstances described?

I can see by your house rule, that you do, on some level, agree.

 

[adembroski]

I'm not seeing the problem other than my opinion on the fact that 4x movement on a full-round run is way too much movement.

A full move action is a dead sprint; 120 feet. That's 40 yards in 6 seconds. The slowest 40 yard dash time on record at the NFL Combine is 6.31 seconds, run by a lineman (who typically weigh 280-325 pounds). My experience as a High School and College coach is that the average athlete can run 40 yards in under 5 seconds, and the average dude that just plays because his dad wants him too comes in around 5.5 seconds. Over six seconds is actually quite rare, even among 300+ pound offensive linemen, for anyone but complete couch potatoes and older folks.

Truth; at 120 feet in a round, we're getting screwed

Just for the record, exceptionally fast... that is, absolute elite, 1% type level, is under 4.25 seconds. These guys would cover closer to 180 ft. in a round. Rumor has it that Usain Bolt runs the 40 in under 4 seconds, but I haven't seen anything verifying that (and its probably not true; converting his 40-meter time to 40-yards doesn't account for continued acceleration).

 

[Sunseeker]

It was the first round, so there was no way for the PC to ready an action.

Of course there is. The PC just declares that they're readying an action in case they come across a foe. Depending on the DM they may request that the PC is specific. So they may ready an action for when an Orc Guard appears as opposed to just any old guard, or any creature that may appear. I try to ask my players to be specific when determining the trigger for a readied action. Keep in mind that actions exist at all times in the game, even when you're not in combat, because you could at any given moment, attack something, cast a spell or what have you.

Exactly. 4x Speed is a long, freakin' distance to move. If you've got a hand axe or a spear at hand, ready to go, and someone starts running from you, shouldn't it at least be possible to hit. A -4 or -6 penalty, even, would be fine.

See, you're jumping ahead a bit. Having a weapon "in hand" is one thing, having it readied is another. Keep in mind that in your given situation only "they have their weapon" and "someone starts running" are satisfied. Initiative represents a lot of things, personal readiness, dexterity, battle-awareness and just plain old luck. The guard was very lucky, and he should be rewarded for his luck same way anyone else was. Sometimes this means things get worse for players, now they're detected and reinforcements are on the way to take them out. It's a risk that you take.

But, let's say you're parlaying with someone, and then he breaks and runs. He's standing 20 feet from you. You've got a hunting spear (10' increment). Once the foe starts to run, that signals the start of combat (he just became a combatant), and he wins nish.

If you're parlaying, it's unlikely you were expecting him to bolt, so you'd be surprised by his actions, you'd be unready for combat, so yeah, chances are he wins...by a lot, and thus successfully runs away! Good for him. Now your characters partake in an adventure to find this guy.

This is how a lot of good adventures start. Someone does something unexpected and gets away with it, because of that a group of adventurers must track them down, which might take a lot of time, and find all sorts of interesting things along the way!

He runs 120 feet + 20 distance = 140. On your turn, you can move up 30 feet then cast your spear. Your distance is 110 feet! That's -20 on the throw! You can't hit him!

I'm thinking that there should be a chance.

I'm thinking the chance is already there. If you trust someone enough to not ready your weapon to attack them while talking with them, or at least having one of your party members do so, then you risk letting him get away when he starts to run. Like I said, it's a risk. The "chance" is covered by the ready action.

Trust me, all you have to do as a DM in such a situation is ask, right as the guy starts to run: "Since noone readied an action Joe Scaredguy runs at his full speed away from you!" From then on, your party will prepare readied actions for everything. Even for stupid things. Sometimes it will pay off, sometimes it won't. But as adventurers, part of their job is being prepared and taking precautions. If they're not being prepared and they're not taking precautions, they're going to get boned. That's just how it goes.