a way to deal with lax players?

[krupintupple]

unfortunately, perhaps due to comfort, or sheer tiredness from everyone working early hours, one or two in the group that i DM have become rather pedestrian in the way they deal with encounters. i wouldn't be so concerned, but it's the group's cleric, and mage; primary healer and primary damage dealer.

the mage only ever seems to use magic missile and fireball, ever. i'll throw him up against something fire resistant and he'll use magic missile. if he sees a lot of glittery goods, he'll magic missile, if he needs an area affect, it's a fireball, guaranteed. the cleric is better, but seems to think he only has one 3rd level spell: prayer.

the group is all level 6, and i've been wanting to challenge them more appropriate to their level, but with a mage and cleric that are 'under-casting' i don't think i could challenge them without at least 2 or 3 deaths. consequentially, they are well aware of player death - in the year and a half since this once-weekly campaign has been active, there have been 8 or so deaths, so i'm not coddling them.

an example: well-guarded mage, with minor globe, would mop the floor with the group. the mage and cleric and bard (via wand), who both have dispel magic should be able to bring down a 7th level mage's minor aura and then unleash upon him. instead, they sat around spamming their usuals, and the cleric attempted to melee with his mace. they only lived as the rogue was able to sneak attack the mage while the fighter and hapless cleric flanked.

another example was fighting a lesser golem that had a damage reduction of 10 or so. the mage was paralyzed and kept blasting it with spells, to no real effect, and then just hung around back with his dagger readied. the cleric used prayer and then stood behind the fighter, healing him as he vainly tried to cope with a DR of 10/--. i fear that a challenging, tactical encounter, say, fighting undead in an unhallowed and spell-trapped swamp, would completely kill them. they don't really use non-damage spells to their best effect: i don't think anyone's ever used augury, detect traps, summon monster (for combat help, or for setting off traps) or alter self, ect.

i think what burns me more is that i comb through our combined trove of splatbooks, and pick out spells that i think would benefit the group, and carefully place them in areas, or present them as questing-gifts...only to see them overlooked for 'fireball', 'prayer' and 'magic missile'.

anyhow, after this mini-rant/concern, i'm curious: what could be done, and secondly, am i overreacting to this?

 

[Oryan77]

Maybe throw a few encounters at them where they are supposed to capture the enemy without killing him?

Did you mention this to them? If you have, and they don't care, then just keep doing what yer doing if you & everyone else can still have fun.

I'm guessing with having 8 deaths in under 2 years, you aren't that concerned with character growth beyond simply leveling up. So is it just annoying you, or are you tired of bringing in new characters & you want the originals to survive longer for roleplaying reasons?

I wouldn't say yer overreacting...players can do things like this that make you frustrated. But I don't really see how you can change it if you pointed it out and they continue to do it. I've never seen a player actually change their habits.

 

[aboyd]

I don't think you're overreacting in one sense. That is, they're lazy, so it's perfectly reasonable for them to be dead. That's how it goes. Having said that, it may be less about laziness and more about being uninspired. In other words, I was never compelled to try a spell just because the DM dropped it in the loot. I need to SEE it in action and think it was really useful! I never tried to trip in D&D 3.5 until the DM had the whole party on the floor during a wolf encounter. A friend of mine never saw the worth of a piddly spell like close wounds until the day he went to -15 in a single shot and I was able to say, "you're not dead."

And if you're willng to kill 'em, then keep going! If they don't adapt, they'll die and have to try again.

 

[Shin Okada]

Well, IMHO, talking with your players is always the first step you should take.
You will not likely to solve the situation without knowing why those players (and other players) do not try to research the possibility of other spells.
Maybe they just don't like to or can't have enough ardor to read through heavy rule-books just for having a good evening hack'n slash.
Or maybe they simply like to play one-trick pony.
Not all the people enjoy the same kind of play (or the same aspect of a game).
Talk with your players and try to find something both you and the players can enjoy.
It is good to try allure players for using something. But do not try to force them to do so.
Maybe, those 2 players should play much simpler characters (like Barbarian and Paladin) and other players should play spellcasters.
Or, maybe you should quit using 3.5e and use some much simpler RPG rule set or RPGs which focuses on different aspects.
Or, simply introducing warmage, favored soul or some specialized caster build (including prestige classes) and such may satisfy them.
But anyway, you should first talk with your players and know why they play like that.

 

[roguerouge]

Time for an arena battle. Get them into a setting where you can take the gloves OFF and they won't die. Then demonstrate the sheer power of a fully armed and operational cleric. Show them what divine power and divine might can do. Show them how rocking battlefield control mages are. Heck an invisible summoner can cause havoc.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I realize that its probably not the case, but I can see- heck, I've seen AND played- PCs who are one-trick ponies...even spellcasters. Sometimes its intentional.

A guy playing an "epic" level 1Ed/2Ed Wizard almost always chose MM or Fireball as his primary options. Don't get me wrong- he knew and used other spells, but odds were high that one of those would be the 1st, 2nd and possibly 3rd spells used in a given conflict, until he ran out. Did I mention he had Wands for each?

I've played spellcasters PCs based around a single spell and its variants- researched and/or metamagically modified. They can be fun, properly done. Just ask Jaya Ballard, Task Mage.

If I ever play a PC who uses MM (I haven't yet, and I've been playing since 1977), I'd play one (in 3.X, at least) who took levels in Force Missile Adept, Argent Savant, was a Focused Specialist Evoker with the Reserve Feats Force Needle and Blade of Force.

If it helps, think of them as barbarians, for whom every problem boils down to their binary choice- bash or don't bash...except in this case, instead of a 2HD Sword, the PC has a Fireball.

At any rate, the solution is pretty simple- give them tasks that those spells won't help. Imagine a situation where MM won't work, and the proposed target is in a crowd of innocents....Fireball won't be an option either.

 

[Nebten]

Maybe its the fact that you've played 1.5 years in a weekly game and they've only gotten to level 6. I mean that is some pretty slow development, like syrup in winter. I would get pretty bored too, or would have left by now. I would recommend picking up the story line. Once they start leveling, they will get new powers to play with and you will be able to challenge them on a more dynamic scale.

I'm surprised your wizard didn't choose to be a sorcerer, then he would be doing exactly what is expected of him =v)

 

[aboyd]

Maybe its the fact that you've played 1.5 years in a weekly game and they've only gotten to level 6.

I missed that part. My campaign has a game every other week, and we've only been playing for 6 months. Yet we're at level 5. The leveling system is part of the fun of the game, and withholding it from the players for long periods is going to sap some of the fun away.

 

[akbearfoot]

It's a little funny to hear someone say that a wizard who likes fireball and magic missile, and a cleric that likes to cast Prayer are 'under casting'. All 3 of those spells rank fairly high on the 'best spells for the level' list. Magic missile is widely considered THE best 1st level spell, and fireball has been known since 1e as a benchmark spell that turns wizards from squishy annoyances to deadly threats.

Then there is the glaring 1.5 years to get to level 6 problem...If the players seem uninspired, its because the progression speed is 2 heart beats away from being in a coma.


Well guarded/played wizards near or above the level of the party are ALWAYS a deadly threat of a TPK. And usually the only way to get around golems is to do exactly what I heard explained....Save the useless magic and keep the meat shields alive!

8 Character deaths seems like tons to me. Enough that I wouldnt bother getting attached to my characters, or trying to develop them or enrich their histories. Why bother when the DM is going to kill you off once every 3 levels or so.

I think the perspective is a little skewed. A challenging encounter isn't supposed to kill 2-3 characters. Especially not if the firepower they are using is solid offensive spells, and one of the best 3rd level cleric buffs in the game. A regular encounter is only supposed to consume abotu 1/4 of the parties resources. If by challenging you mean 'barely scraping by in single digits with no spells left' Then you are setting the bar WAY too high.

 

[Particle_Man]

Can't help with the cleric, but maybe the mage player would be happier with a warlock. Less powers, but you can keep using them all day. Less paperwork, basically.

I would have thought fireballs were sucky in 3.x, since monster hp is so inflated compared to earlier editions, and fireball damage has not increased to keep up. But that is a topic for another thread, perhaps.