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a wizard says what?

Dioltach

Legend
I've used the Channeling system from the Wheel of Time setting, both for Wheel of Time and in a slightly adapted form for a Middle Earth campaign I ran. It offers more options than the straight Vancian system, but tends to get somewhat complicated.

I like the Star Wars RPG's use of Force skills and Vitality cost.
 

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SiderisAnon

First Post
I have never liked the prepared spell method, simply because I think it limits game options too much. Players tend to min-max it and have lots of combat spells prepared, never really using their neat or interesting spells. This tends to make spellcasters kind of repetitive. I also don't like the auditing that comes up because players are sometimes not so good about actually marking down what they memorized, so they can pick and choose as they go. (I won't go so far as to say "cheating", but ...)

I've tried some models that were more sorcerer class in their approach, where you can pick and choose as you go. These generally work fairly well.

Currently, I am using magic points and a heavily modified version of "Elements of Magic". Not only are there no set spell slots to fill, you don't even have set spells. The characters learn spell lists, which allow them to do certain types of magic, and then craft their spells from their pieces. In a lot of ways, it reminds me of power creation in HERO system. (Though my modified version has a bit less math and is less "hinky" in its setup than the original "Elements of Magic".)

I find this system gives the characters a lot of flexibility, since they can effectively create new spells on the fly if they have the time. This allows them to react to situations. With the signature spells that are cast quickly, the spellcasters still have their core attack and healing type spells that are used during the combat rounds. My players like this, and overall it seems to work well. It's a little harder to introduce a total newbie to, but not too badly so.


Since the OP asked about classes: I stripped out all the classes. I have six. There are the Armsman, Spellbinder, and Expert. These are the warrior, spellcaster, and skill-monkey. Then there are the Bladecaster, Taskmage, and Skillsword, who are basically half-and-half of two of the first three. Each of the six primary classes has abilities available to them that no other class can have. Each class allows you to pick and choose from a list of abilities, rather than assign specific things to you. (So, where Rogue gives you +1d6 Sneak Attack, Expert gives you the option to pick that or a number of other abilities.) Each of the classes has certain built in basics. The Armsman gives you the highest hit points and BAB. The Spellbinder gives you the most magical ability. (Which in "Elements of Magic" is just caster levels, which stack with everything else, so every class uses the same chart, just some go up it faster.) The Expert gives you lots of skills and access to more special abilities.

This is my first campaign with the totally revamped system. So far, it is going well and everyone seems to enjoy the flexibility.
 

that sounds really good. do you have any examples? either write ups for those classes or descriptions of adventures/encounters they have been successfully used in?
 

SiderisAnon

First Post
Class Abilities

Unfortunately, I cannot post my class write-ups because some of the material I used is not OGL. To give you an idea of what I am talking about, I have included the list of minor class abilities and which classes get them. The spellcasters get the fewest, the Expert gets the most, and the warriors are somewhere in between. (Armsmen, for instance, get bonus combat feats and abilities, where as an Expert pretty much gets nothing but abilities.)

It's not on the list, but any class has the ability to use an ability to buy a feat from a specific list. The feat is chosen from a specific list, not just any feat.

The Spellbinder gets a full caster level every level. Taskmage and Bladecaster each get 1/2 caster level. (In "Elements of Magic", there are half caster levels and levels from any class stack together to form a single caster level.)

My players have been encouraging me to release the campaign book under OGL. I kept notes along the way of where things came from, so I can pull any non-OGL material out, I just haven't taken the time to do so yet.
 

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JDJblatherings

First Post
D&D spell aren'twritten for a spell point based magic system. folsk claimign people use a wider variety of spells if they have a spel poitn message are runnign absolutely contrary every time i'verun ir been in a camapign thatused spell poitns in D&D. The only time the old stand-by spells didn't egt used again and agaun is wheni outright banned them from player selection. spell point systems with D&D spells = more magic missles, more sleep spells (in the old days at least), more invisibility and more fireballs.
 

SiderisAnon

First Post
JDJblatherings said:
D&D spell aren't written for a spell point based magic system. ... spell point systems with D&D spells = more magic missles, more sleep spells (in the old days at least), more invisibility and more fireballs.
On that, I totally agree. I tried a magic point type system using the base spells back under 2nd Edition. I gave spellcasters a number of magic points equal to the total number of spell levels they could cast in a day. It was brutal. (At least on the non-spellcasting monsters.) I only used it for one campaign and then never touched it again.

I admit that under the modified "Elements of Magic" system I use, most of the spells cast are either damage based or healing based. Although there is a lot more variety in spell types than I generally see under the core spells, mainly because different magical elements have different special effects and other uses so a Fire Strike is different than a Void Missile, I fully expected to see the damage causing and damage healing spells be the most common spells. From a tactical standpoint, at lower levels, those are the most effective spells a caster can use.

Within the system, the spells are relatively balanced against each other. Magic Missile is not the ultimate attack spell, because there is no such thing. You choose to cast from an element you know, you set a spell's range, duration, area of effect, and number of dice of damage and these determine how many magic points you spend. The element can determine special effects, so there can be some min/max there (Fire lets you start things on fire, Lightning lets you stun opponents, Death lets you cause afflictions, Life lets you do subdual damage), but overall the spells are still far more balanced and far less corner-case than the ones in the PHB.


The really nice thing about the flexibility of the system is that the spellcasters have the option to do far more. As an example, in one early adventure the party had to "rescue" a niece of a powerful noble who may have been kidnapped by her love's family or may have just run off with her love in order to avoid an arranged marriage. The party located her in the small keep of the uncle of the love, and the uncle was also nobility. They simply couldn't go in guns blazing. It was near the end of the day and they couldn't legitimately hang around the area for a second day because they were already drawing notice. Under core rules, the spellcasters would have been screwed because they wouldn't have had any corner case spells prepared.

Instead, what happened was the players came up with a mildly bizarre (at least for them) plan and executed it perfectly. The plan hinged on magic which they were able to have access to because of the flexibility. They sneak up on the keep. One of the spellcasters conjures up some ladders. It's moat and bailey, with a dry moat. They have a really big fighter capable of moving the ladders around quickly and quietly. They drop one ladder down the outside of the moat and climb down. They lean the second ladder against the other side of the moat and up the wall. They drop the third ladder down the other side of the wall. They run the fourth ladder up the side of the keep. They go into they living area through a balcony door and through the window of the lady's room (go halfling Expert). They managed to get spotted by only one guard. (There were only two on duty. It was a very peaceful area.) The other spellcaster used a Compel signature spell to make the guard cower for the next minute. The party ran like the wind, all the way through the village, and onto their waiting ship, which was already weighing anchor. By the time the guard inside the keep awakened the uncle, the ship was already sailing and the uncle's fishing boats could catch up.

Best of all, the ladders faded away after the spell expired, so there was no evidence of how they'd even gotten in.

This is just not the type of thing a set of typical second level casters could have pulled off without plenty of time to prepare just the right spells.
 

Roadkill101

Explorer
At one time I played around with adding up the values of the spell slots per day and turned them into spell points, where the level of a spell dictated how many spell points were necessary to cast a spell. If a caster had a spell in their spell book they could cast the spell, if they had the spell points (which where restored to full after an 8 hour rest period).

Bonus spells from a high Int or Wis, translated into bonus spell points cumulatively.

I tried this out before 3e (it'll nerf some of the meta-magic feats), unfortunately I got no results, as no one in my group had any interest in playing a spell caster of any stripe.
 

SiderisAnon said:
Unfortunately, I cannot post my class write-ups because some of the material I used is not OGL. To give you an idea of what I am talking about, I have included the list of minor class abilities and which classes get them. The spellcasters get the fewest, the Expert gets the most, and the warriors are somewhere in between. (Armsmen, for instance, get bonus combat feats and abilities, where as an Expert pretty much gets nothing but abilities.)

It's not on the list, but any class has the ability to use an ability to buy a feat from a specific list. The feat is chosen from a specific list, not just any feat.

The Spellbinder gets a full caster level every level. Taskmage and Bladecaster each get 1/2 caster level. (In "Elements of Magic", there are half caster levels and levels from any class stack together to form a single caster level.)

My players have been encouraging me to release the campaign book under OGL. I kept notes along the way of where things came from, so I can pull any non-OGL material out, I just haven't taken the time to do so yet.


you rock.
 

Roadkill101 said:
At one time I played around with adding up the values of the spell slots per day and turned them into spell points, where the level of a spell dictated how many spell points were necessary to cast a spell. If a caster had a spell in their spell book they could cast the spell, if they had the spell points (which where restored to full after an 8 hour rest period).

Bonus spells from a high Int or Wis, translated into bonus spell points cumulatively.

I tried this out before 3e (it'll nerf some of the meta-magic feats), unfortunately I got no results, as no one in my group had any interest in playing a spell caster of any stripe.

we use this alot. course, in our game we have a near infinite amount of different types of casters.
 

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