Ability and skill modifiers by gender

[Elf Witch]

Personally I like to mix things a bit... To have options in game-mechanic sense. Like for instance I like that half-elves and half-orcs are different from humans, even though some half-elves and half-orcs could be different, taking more dominant traits from either parents. And why does all the dwarves have to have penalty to charisma, couldn't some just be lovable?

If men and women would be different in D&D, we could effectively double the amount races without making things overly complicated. That sounds nice and I won't even bother to look it any deeper than that. For me the whole idea sounds great! More "races" for me thank you!

Also not to degrade women, I could make the adjustment as something that would favour women, such as giving them -2 STR and +2 Wis. Now all the best fighters would be male and all the best clerics would be female. In this case women would "win".

However I think this wouldn't work because many people would get upset with me. And since it's a cooperative game, I'd rather not have my fellow players and DMs upset with me. Only if I would have excessive number of players, most of them male... maybe then I could pull something like this.

Also, you know what's funny?
I like Game of Thrones. It's fantasy and the whole thing is very male dominated (but it's not the reason why I like it). If they would make a game that would be LOYAL to the series (or the book Song of Ice and Fire), there would have to be something in the game-mechanics to restrict women from certain roles. It could be something about the campaign world and/or character generation... I really don't care how it would be done, but if in Game of Thrones RPG half or even a quarter of the combat-cabable heroes would be females, it would be a travesty.

Yet no one complains about the series, everybody seems to love it. Both men and women.

Do you also think that we should modify the stats for all female characters regardless of race? When ever this topic comes up it is all about humans.

Do we just assume that elves are equal in everything because they are elves not humans?

There is a game book out for GRRM Game of Thrones world.

 

[Celebrim]

That view is a society based view and not true of all societies. A lot of people value a strong independent woman. Just look at movies and TV shows. Buffy is beautiful, strong and kicks demon butt better than anyone.

Please, let's not bring up Buffy. Chasing Buffy's origins down doesn't lead to where you think it leads, namely, 'value of a strong independent woman'.

 

[Celebrim]

Do you also think that we should modify the stats for all female characters regardless of race?

I think that depends on the race. Does the race exhibit sexual dimorphism?

If, 'Yes', then perhaps 'Yes'. If, 'No', then certainly 'No'.

Spider inspired races might have dominating likely physically larger female members and males specialized in stealth. Bear inspired races might have physically larger male members and females with superior social skills.

When ever this topic comes up it is all about humans.

In public these arguments quickly devolve into political discussions and so quickly revolve around humans because its 'the real world' and not the game that public participants usually want to talk about. The first poster in this thread seemed to really want to talk about the OP's girlfriend.

In private with mature people, they don't always revolve that way. I'll give you an excerpt from a discussion of gender relations among my Dwarves:

Dwarven males outnumber dwarven females at birth by about 2:1, so many dwarven males will never marry. Obtaining a bride often requires not only the consent of the lady dwarf, but of her nearest of kin and the payment of a large dowry. Only the dwarves with the largest fortunes and greatest honor can hope to win a bride, and a dwarven father of several admired daughters may become quite wealthy and win high rank thereby. Unmarried male dwarves often pledge themselves to the service of a clan chieftain that is their near kin or even in some cases to a much admired dwarven female directly in a relationship called a huscarl, and thereafter live in a state that (at least ideally) quite like celibate polyandry while supporting the married couple. In the unfortunate event of the death of the husband, the widow is expected to pick a new husband from among her huscarls. While in most cases this proves an excellent system and huscarls generally are great friends and comrades in battle, it can also one of great tension and even treachery should the honor of one party to the relationship fail. It should not therefore be surprising that much of dwarvish literature, poetry, and song revolves around these relationships and the chivalric love poetry of a huscarl to a woman he cannot attain.

Dwarves have structured feudal societies built along clan and family lines. Dwarven males that prove exceptionally valorous in battle are awarded the rank of knight. Knighthoods are generally bestowed by family Patriarchs. Patriarchs in turn owe allegiance to Chieftains, who in turn serve under Thanes. Thanes in turn serve a High Thane or High King. Titles are most often inherited, but the inheritance must be confirmed by a council of the nobles beneath them so an heir which is deemed dishonorable or otherwise unsuitable may be turned down in favor of another from within their ranks. Election is generally confirmed by a vote, but heirs of the existing noble are favored so as to prevent the possibility of civil war whenever possible. Nonetheless, dissent and division does happen though not very frequently as judged by the generations of men. Females do not normally use titles when among other dwarves, it being sufficient to name your relationship to a high ranking male to obtain deference and respect, but sometimes adopt human style titles amongst other races to avoid confusion for those not learned in the nuances of dwarven politics. While females take little active role in government, they are expected to be the chief advisors and confidents of their mates and are in theory to be respected for their wisdom. They are not however expected to gainsay their male kin in public, though it is a rare dwarven husband who has not been called into another room to 'fetch a keg' for his wife upon occasion.

Dwarven society on my world has this wierd mixture of very great respect for women alongside very great dismissal of their role in certain affairs. Oddly though, other than reproductive role and social expectations, I don't see the dwarves as being particularly varied in appearance. Much like Pratchett, I think the two sexes are close enough in appearance that non-dwarves have a very hard time telling them apart without cultural and social markers (bows in their beards, for instance). There are probably some, but since dwarves are made up, whatever differences the two sexes have are basically whatever you want them to be.

Do we just assume that elves are equal in everything because they are elves not humans?

Depends on how you define elves. Elves are traditionally - much like dwarves - defined in a somewhat androgenous manner. In fact, in D&D, the chief deity of the elves has been explicitly defined as dual gendered and sexed. So, you wouldn't expect a whole lot of physical differences between the two genders, though of course much like the dwarves social and cultural differences might arise based on reproductive function.

 

[Jon_Dahl]

First, I love Game of Thrones (book & series).

Second, I would argue there are several strong female characters in GoT. I didn't see any men walk into a burning pyre and emerge with three dragons...

Third, it is a fantasy setting where warriors are mostly men. Just because people enjoy watching the setting doesn't mean that is the setting they want to play in. It is very easy to enjoy GoT and still want to play in a setting where women warriors are just as capable as male warriors. Heck, that describes me to a T. I mean, people like Xena too, don't they?

Well I didn't say it's totally male dominated. But men sure fight and take the glory "a bit" more than women, I'd dare to say? I'm not saying that it's a great thing, but this kind of fantasy where men fight - and no Xenas jump around - can and does work.

And I know that just because you like watching a setting doesn't mean that you'll enjoy playing that setting. I really don't know if you're commenting or making an argument, but my point was that if the game would run as the setting, we would see weapons almost exclusively only with males. And as fantasy setting, Game of Thrones is commendable!

To Elf Witch,
I like consistency, so let's not just stop with humans. Let's make it universal with all the races if we're to establish such rule (which we would not do, of course). Expections would of course exist and I'm not going to comment them.

 

[Darwinism]

Before you ask yourself if gender stereotyping is cool, ask yourself if racial stereotyping would be.

Because it's the same thing; adds nothing to the game and enforces (usually horribly wrong) stereotypes in games that, at their heart, are not about forcing people into roles but more about heroic people surpassing any sort of expectations.

edit: And nothing is sillier than the, "Well in real life there's been a patriarchy for thousands of years so naturally in my game with elves and dragons and magic that would be the exact same." I, personally, don't want my game's cultures to mimic ones in real life because, let's face it, real life is a horrible place full of people killing/subjugating each other for the most minute differences.

 

[Celebrim]

Before you ask yourself if gender stereotyping is cool, ask yourself if racial stereotyping would be.

You mean like, 'Elves are dandies that prance around in the woods and are always good with bows', or 'Dwarves are drunkards that know alot of about working stone and are never far from their trusty axe'?

Before you start down that path of denouncing whether or not it is 'cool' to even be discussing this stuff, ask yourself how 'cool' this thread is likely to remain if instead of discussing the topic we start discussing whether or not the people in the thread are immoral creeps?

And if you can't refrain from making this a thread about making comments about the morality of the participants or insinuating about their real world relationships with women, I don't understand why you are bothering to participate. Why not show your disdain and outrage by refusing to dignify the thread with your comments?

let's face it, real life is a horrible place full of people killing/subjugating each other for the most minute differences.

Sounds like D&D to me. In fact, I dare say that objectively speaking, every D&D setting ever known was a far more horrible place than the real world, and I certainly wouldn't want to live there. In practice, behind whatever noble words, every band of D&D heroes isn't that far from being serial killers that murder people wholesale for the most mercenary of reasons. There is more death and murder in one of my average sessions than any of us in the developed world are likely to experience short of a 200 days in a war zone. Only Cabot Cove has a higher percentage of its inhabitants the victim of murder most foul.

 

[domino]

You mean like, 'Elves are dandies that prance around in the woods and are always good with bows', or 'Dwarves are drunkards that know alot of about working stone and are never far from their trusty axe'?

Pretty sure he means things like "Black people get a +1 to strength, but a -1 to intelligence, and Asians get a +1 to intelligence, but a -1 to charisma because of their buck teeth. White people get -1 to athletics because white men can't jump." Actual real life races, like the actual real life genders being discussed.

 

[Celebrim]

Pretty sure he means things like "Black people get a +1 to strength, but a -1 to intelligence, and Asians get a +1 to intelligence, but a -1 to charisma because of their buck teeth. White people get -1 to athletics because white men can't jump." Actual real life races, like the actual real life genders being discussed.

Do you honestly think I didn't know what he meant? Maybe ask yourself why I responded like I did anyway.

 

[Darwinism]

You mean like, 'Elves are dandies that prance around in the woods and are always good with bows', or 'Dwarves are drunkards that know alot of about working stone and are never far from their trusty axe'?

Yeah those are pretty purposefully offensive racial stereotypes, too, good job. Only I guess you don't really understand what makes negative stereotypes negative. Hint: it's the pejoratives, not weapon training.

Before you start down that path of denouncing whether or not it is 'cool' to even be discussing this stuff, ask yourself how 'cool' this thread is likely to remain if instead of discussing the topic we start discussing whether or not the people in the thread are immoral creeps?

Let's face it, it's pretty immoral to put forth the idea that all women are good at X and all men are good at Y. It doesn't benefit the gameworld in any meaningful way except to enforce stereotypes. If that's what you want out of a game, cool, but it's still damaging the idea of equality whether you intend it or not.

And if you can't refrain from making this a thread about making comments about the morality of the participants or insinuating about their real world relationships with women, I don't understand why you are bothering to participate. Why not show your disdain and outrage by refusing to dignify the thread with your comments?

What? Man, you're insanely touchy. Disagreeing with the thread doesn't mean I'm personally attacking you, you should probably lose that persecution complex.

Sounds like D&D to me. In fact, I dare say that objectively speaking, every D&D setting ever known was a far more horrible place than the real world, and I certainly wouldn't want to live there. In practice, behind whatever noble words, every band of D&D heroes isn't that far from being serial killers that murder people wholesale for the most mercenary of reasons. There is more death and murder in one of my average sessions than any of us in the developed world are likely to experience short of a 200 days in a war zone. Only Cabot Cove has a higher percentage of its inhabitants the victim of murder most foul.

You haven't studied history much, have you? It's basically chock full of massacres and ethnic/religious purges and war and all sorts of nastiness that D&D just apes here and there, it sure doesn't surpass the real world.

 

[kitcik]

[MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] , I agree with most of your points in a theoretical sense. However...

I think you should take your own advice and just not respond rather than upping the anti with an inflammatory / sarcastic response.

Personally, I think there are many possible fantasy gaming settings and each group should find and play in one they like. There should be no broad D&D rule about gender differences - just leave that up to individual groups.

Going back to the OP, I think that if your group wants to play in a setting with these type of differences, then go for it. I only think that, in the case of the specific adjustments you suggested, they are heavily advantageous to males and you should consider that before trying to recruit a group to play with those rules. You might not have been fully aware of the big differences when you wrote them.