Ability Modifiers and "Monster" Races

[Greenfaun]

The way I see it, this is another example where PC and NPC/monsters rules diverge. Monsters can have negative ability modifiers, and they do, but that is a result of their level and role, not their race. PCs are not built like monsters, so they would get the racial bonuses to two of their stats. From what I've seen, monsters and their related PC write-ups are related together by racial powers.

I see what you're saying here, and it's not a bad thing to separate it that way. Balance is important to fun.

Thing is, why not just go all the way, then? Why not say "Everybody gets a +2 to any two stats" and let the racial features be the only thing that differentiates ALL the races? I mean, if you're going to treat PC's differently to a nearly arbitrary degree, why not get rid of the "nearly"?

I don't want to come across as overly negative, clearly this is just a difference in personal taste. It just bugs me.

 

[Atomictophat]

uh okaay. Not sure what you mean. Are you saying they should get a charisma bonus for that? And these are not my words, the MM actually uses the words "ill-tempered" and "cowardly", oh and their lair is "stinking and soiled".

What I mean is what some people find unpleasant, others find likable. Goblins don't see other races like dwarfs or humans or elves as jolly or brave or well-groomed. they see them as annoyingly happy, running off to get themselves killed for the stupidest of reasons or always shoving their la-de-da fancy palace in your face.

 

[half-dragon dragon]

Not sure if this will help anyone, but I was reminded of something from the 1E PHB concerning half-orcs. It had a little blurb about how only about 10% or so of all half-orcs were sufficiently human enough (i.e. intelligent and possibly civilized enough) to be able to function in society, or something like that.

I know that's not the precise wording but the point I'm trying to make is that, for the generally less 'civilized' races such as goblins, only a small percentage of them are 'PC caliber'. So your average goblin will be uncouth and such, deserving of a low charisma, but those that are PCs are the ones that have the drive and personality to become adventurers and possibly one day challenge the gods.

Although I suspect this won't satisfy a lot of people's ideas, its what I'm going to roll with. Then again, when and if I ever DM I plan on running a more cosmopolitan world where all of the playable races commingle freely and thus goblins being charismatic and such is just the norm for them.

 

[lutecius]

What I mean is what some people find unpleasant, others find likable. Goblins don't see other races like dwarfs or humans or elves as jolly or brave or well-groomed. they see them as annoyingly happy, running off to get themselves killed for the stupidest of reasons or always shoving their la-de-da fancy palace in your face.

Are you some kind of goblin welfare activist?
I believe they are explicitly described as vile and unpleasant to everyone (they don't even get along with each other) so that you don't have to feel bad for butchering them.

Trying to understand goblins is all nice and good, but the question at hand is whether they should get a charisma bonus. i.e. Should these “qualities” give them an advantage over other races in leadership, diplomacy or intimidation?

 

[MightyTev]

These ability modifiers are for "PC Goblins" (and PC Humans, Elfs, Gnomes, etc).

I haven't seen the books yet, but I would guess the stats for "Monster Goblins" and "Monster Humans" and the like are lower. PCs are supposed to be extraordinary.

 

[Andur]

Charisma = force of personality

So while they might be cowardly, stinky, and ill-temper, it just means they are more likely to "project" those traits to others around them. So having going off and fighting a bunch of goblin PC's for a bit would make one tend towards being smelly and not caring about it, cranky, and a lil jumpy of things that go bump in the night...

 

[Aservan]

I'm gonna be honest. I am a huge fan of game balance, but I don't see as the same as game blandness. Down the 4th edition path lies blandness. Don't get me wrong this edition is still a huge improvement over 3rd. The ugliness that all game will have though is starting to show up.

Chess is a perfectly balanced game but it gets old for me because it has game blandness the pieces are all the same. I don't need or want that in my RPG.

The fact that a 80 lbs. halfling can have the same strength as a 210 lbs. dwarf is absurd in my book. Pure stupid.

Racial penalties should have remained. Not every race needed them. Elves for example don't really need penalties. So that was a step forward. But why couldn't halflings get a -2 Str and a +2 to Wis or something. Balance maintained but at least a nod at plausibility too.

We were promised that race would matter after 1st level and to WoTC's credit I think they tried, but failed. They wanted powers to be the awesome sauce in this edition. They are. Feats though took a back seat and have been reduced to more of a flavor mechanic rather then a way to make your character do cool stuff. Racial abilities though were to be enhanced and added through feats. Well the enhancement (such as it is) remained but you can't really get new cool stuff from feats for your race. Teiflings can't use their tails as weapons, dragonborn can't have wings (in any form not even gliding), dwarves can't go all strength of granite, and humans are about as much action hero as Justin Whalin in the D&D the Movie.

Game balance needed to be maintain and so too did the delivery date. I think they blew it on the race matters after first. Dragon born can at least make their breath weapon a little better and dwarves, elves, and eladrin can get better with their signature weapons, but those are the only racial feats that made me go "COOL!" the rest are just "meh."

They would have been better off offering racial powers that could be taken in place of some of the class powers as a character leveled. Then your race could be awesome too. I don't really understand why they didn't as the same sort of mechanic had already been invented for 3.5.

 

[Argyuile]

I'm gonna be honest. I am a huge fan of game balance, but I don't see as the same as game blandness. Down the 4th edition path lies blandness. Don't get me wrong this edition is still a huge improvement over 3rd. The ugliness that all game will have though is starting to show up.

Chess is a perfectly balanced game but it gets old for me because it has game blandness the pieces are all the same. I don't need or want that in my RPG.

The fact that a 80 lbs. halfling can have the same strength as a 210 lbs. dwarf is absurd in my book. Pure stupid.

Racial penalties should have remained. Not every race needed them. Elves for example don't really need penalties. So that was a step forward. But why couldn't halflings get a -2 Str and a +2 to Wis or something. Balance maintained but at least a nod at plausibility too.

We were promised that race would matter after 1st level and to WoTC's credit I think they tried, but failed. They wanted powers to be the awesome sauce in this edition. They are. Feats though took a back seat and have been reduced to more of a flavor mechanic rather then a way to make your character do cool stuff. Racial abilities though were to be enhanced and added through feats. Well the enhancement (such as it is) remained but you can't really get new cool stuff from feats for your race. Teiflings can't use their tails as weapons, dragonborn can't have wings (in any form not even gliding), dwarves can't go all strength of granite, and humans are about as much action hero as Justin Whalin in the D&D the Movie.

Game balance needed to be maintain and so too did the delivery date. I think they blew it on the race matters after first. Dragon born can at least make their breath weapon a little better and dwarves, elves, and eladrin can get better with their signature weapons, but those are the only racial feats that made me go "COOL!" the rest are just "meh."

They would have been better off offering racial powers that could be taken in place of some of the class powers as a character leveled. Then your race could be awesome too. I don't really understand why they didn't as the same sort of mechanic had already been invented for 3.5.

While I disagree about the racial penalties I couln't agree more with the powers. I really wish there where more racial powers and feats.

When they where talking about the races really mattering initially I was thinking that you where going to get a parallel level up chart of abilities. Now your a 5th level fighter and you get X, and because your a 5th level elf you get Y. Then as your level got higher your race would matter more and more.

 

[mattdm]

Historically, goblins were mischievous and malign underground creatures, perhaps related to kobolds.

If you mean "perhaps", in the sense of "it's exactly the same word in a different language", sure, perhaps.

 

[Dausuul]

Are you some kind of goblin welfare activist?
I believe they are explicitly described as vile and unpleasant to everyone (they don't even get along with each other) so that you don't have to feel bad for butchering them.

Trying to understand goblins is all nice and good, but the question at hand is whether they should get a charisma bonus. i.e. Should these “qualities” give them an advantage over other races in leadership, diplomacy or intimidation?

Should a goblin be able to charm your socks off, inspire you with noble words, and persuade you to love your neighbor? Clearly not. But should a goblin be able to make you nervous and unsure of yourself, manipulate you with clever lies, and sting your temper with cutting insults? Absolutely.

The eladrin warlord keeps his troops going by shouting, "For Pelor! We will never surrender! Stand your ground, men! Evil cannot triumph while we hold fast!"

The goblin warlord keeps his troops going by snarling, "Fight, you miserable worm-eating yellow-bellied scum! My grandmother hits harder than that! Now rip out their livers and gouge out their eyes, and you'll have some meat for dinner tonight!"