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About Dragon Flight

The_Magician

First Post
I'm creating an adventure where players will roleplay young dragons, and I realised that the travelling would be done mostly by flight, instead of the ground, so the perspective would be different. What I would want to ask you guys is: How high can a dragon fly? And how far into the horizon can a dragon see from the sky?

I know for a fact that some birds can fly as high as 30,000 feet, but flying from that altitude, the dragon wont be able to see many details from things on the ground.

So.... any ideas?
 

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Jack Simth

First Post
The_Magician said:
I'm creating an adventure where players will roleplay young dragons, and I realised that the travelling would be done mostly by flight, instead of the ground, so the perspective would be different. What I would want to ask you guys is: How high can a dragon fly?
Unspecified in RAW, so campaign dependant. They can fly as high as the atmosphere can support them.
The_Magician said:
And how far into the horizon can a dragon see from the sky?
Again, campaign dependent. If you feel like getting pesky real-world math involved, it depends on the size of your world, the shape of your world (sphere, cube, torus, infinite plane, whatever), and a few other things (I'm not feeling sufficiently mathmatically inclined to derive it for a sphere at the moment....). Much easier just to pick a number - 100 miles, say, for the first 1,000 feet up, 200 miles for 1,005 to 10,000, 300 miles for higher than that....
The_Magician said:
I know for a fact that some birds can fly as high as 30,000 feet, but flying from that altitude, the dragon wont be able to see many details from things on the ground.
Don't forget that dragons have enhanced senses - probably just for that (also for spotting prey beasts from afar....). It might be worthwhile to make an unlabeled map - shows rivers, mountains, forests, towns, et cetera as they might be seen from the sky - but note that anything under cover (say, the road or river that goes through the forest) isn't going to be visible at all; likewise, anything underground (such as a goblin warren, a dwarven city, or the realms of the Drow) won't show from the sky.
The_Magician said:
So.... any ideas?
Reply hazy. Check again later.
 

SidusLupus

First Post
There are actually some rules for altitude which I applied to my players when they had access to a flying ship and had the annoying habit of flying just inside the edge of the atmosphere.

From the SRD detailing wilderness, and in particular Mountain Terrain:

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Mountain Travel

High altitude can be extremely fatiguing—or sometimes deadly—to creatures that aren’t used to it. Cold becomes extreme, and the lack of oxygen in the air can wear down even the most hardy of warriors.
Acclimated Characters

Creatures accustomed to high altitude generally fare better than lowlanders. Any creature with an Environment entry that includes mountains is considered native to the area, and acclimated to the high altitude. Characters can also acclimate themselves by living at high altitude for a month. Characters who spend more than two months away from the mountains must reacclimate themselves when they return. Undead, constructs, and other creatures that do not breathe are immune to altitude effects.
Altitude Zones

In general, mountains present three possible altitude bands: low pass, low peak/high pass, and high peak.
Low Pass (lower than 5,000 feet)

Most travel in low mountains takes place in low passes, a zone consisting largely of alpine meadows and forests. Travelers may find the going difficult (which is reflected in the movement modifiers for traveling through mountains), but the altitude itself has no game effect.
Low Peak or High Pass (5,000 to 15,000 feet)

Ascending to the highest slopes of low mountains, or most normal travel through high mountains, falls into this category. All nonacclimated creatures labor to breathe in the thin air at this altitude. Characters must succeed on a Fortitude save each hour (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or be fatigued. The fatigue ends when the character descends to an altitude with more air. Acclimated characters do not have to attempt the Fortitude save.
High Peak (more than 15,000 feet)

The highest mountains exceed 20,000 feet in height. At these elevations, creatures are subject to both high altitude fatigue (as described above) and altitude sickness, whether or not they’re acclimated to high altitudes. Altitude sickness represents long-term oxygen deprivation, and it affects mental and physical ability scores. After each 6-hour period a character spends at an altitude of over 15,000 feet, he must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1 point of damage to all ability scores. Creatures acclimated to high altitude receive a +4 competence bonus on their saving throws to resist high altitude effects and altitude sickness, but eventually even seasoned mountaineers must abandon these dangerous elevations.
--------------------

So there's some rules for what happens when you travel too far up. Fort saves or be fatigued. For the dragons without cold subtypes, they should probably also have to start making fortsaves for temperature exposure at the middle range.

Also, depending on how long they travel you should factor in the fort saves and increase the difficulty across the board, considering long distance travel at high altitudes and low temperatures.

Dragons with the Air subtype should probably get a free pass on the the fortsave for high altitudes, and be treated as acclimated for all purposes.

Fire subtypes should either take a penalty or have stronger pentalites for the cold.

I would figure that Silver dragons would be handwaived on everything but the traveling forsave, since they have both Air and Cold subtypes.

Since these are all fort saves and dragons have high con, chances are they may travel higher and longer than you're wanting to and if you feel that it's too easy, add more altitude ranges or something.

Good luck, it sounds like it may be a fun adventure. What kind of dragons are they going to be anyways?
 

The_Magician

First Post
I will be using the geography of Toril to crete my own world, so it is a planet similar to Earth. Basically, I dont need to be pesky about the math, but I want to have a reference, that's all. If a dragon wants to travel without being spotted from tehn ground, then they cna just go for the higher altitudes. How high should be high enough for them not to be seen? 30,000 feet is the altitude used by airplanes so I think something aroiund that. (when we see airplanes in the sky they are not flying so high)

Now, if the ground is actually try to spot a prey of humanoid size, how high can he fly to do that? And from that altitude, how far can he see into the horizon?

I know that information is not common knowledge, but seeing as this is a big forum, I am crossing my fingers and hoping someone knwos this. The PHB from 2nd ed has some clues on the matter. It says that on levle ground the horizon is about five to twelve miles away. Under optimum conditions, the maximum range at which a man-sized object can be seen is about 1500 yards, if it is moving.
 

The_Magician said:
I will be using the geography of Toril to crete my own world, so it is a planet similar to Earth. Basically, I dont need to be pesky about the math, but I want to have a reference, that's all. If a dragon wants to travel without being spotted from tehn ground, then they cna just go for the higher altitudes. How high should be high enough for them not to be seen? 30,000 feet is the altitude used by airplanes so I think something aroiund that. (when we see airplanes in the sky they are not flying so high)

Now, if the ground is actually try to spot a prey of humanoid size, how high can he fly to do that? And from that altitude, how far can he see into the horizon?

I know that information is not common knowledge, but seeing as this is a big forum, I am crossing my fingers and hoping someone knwos this. The PHB from 2nd ed has some clues on the matter. It says that on levle ground the horizon is about five to twelve miles away. Under optimum conditions, the maximum range at which a man-sized object can be seen is about 1500 yards, if it is moving.
To determine how far they can see, just use the spot check modifiers - once there spot check modifier reaches -20, they are probably unable to see anything useful (since they will fail most spot checks)
 




nittanytbone

First Post
The_Magician said:
I knew someone would save me! Thanks dude! =D

No problem. Remember, that's for the earth. If your planet has a smaller or larger radius then the figures are different. Also, bear in mind that visibility will often be lower than the theoretical geometric maximum due to weather conditions.
 

The_Magician

First Post
nittanytbone said:
No problem. Remember, that's for the earth. If your planet has a smaller or larger radius then the figures are different. Also, bear in mind that visibility will often be lower than the theoretical geometric maximum due to weather conditions.

Planet is similar, and yeah, I am aware of that. now I just need to find out how high a dragon can fly and still be able to see humanoid creatures below.
 

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