AC vs other Defences

[Byronic]

I was making a level 30 character when I noticed something odd. Monsters usually hit AC at (their level + 5) while hitting other defences at (their level + 3) However while the AC raises itself quite well the other defences often lag behind. While it's not very noticable at lower levels on the highest levels you see quite a difference. Unless you rolled unusually good, became a human paladin and/or took the 3 feats to raise your defences they would lag behind quite a bit, the lowest maybe being an auto-hit from monsters your level.

Has anybody noticed this? It's not much of a problem right now (not many people in Epic, most non-Ac attacks attack Defenders stronger defences etc) but have you noticed how they're much weaker?

 

[StormCrow42]

You may be missing the neck slot items that all provide an equivalent boost to the magic pluses of armor. Your ability bumps will also increase your other defenses, go ahead and spend the feat on your weak one, you've plenty of feats to take.

 

[Tony Vargas]

A PC will have one save he has no trouble keeping up to snuff (the one his primary stat adds to - oddly, it's REF for Wizards, for instance), maybe even rivalling AC. How he distributes his other level ups determines how his other saves do. If he exclusively boosts one secondary stat (like my Warlord, who will boost STR and INT every chance he gets), then he'll be left with one very weak save. If he balances between two secondary stats that each add to thier own save (probably the most efficient option), then he'll have two just-OK defenses, but nothing really abysmal - assuming a good kneck-slot item. If you end up boosting two stats that add to the same defense (like a hammer fighter with a high STR & CON, or a wand Wizard with high INT & DEX, or a cleric who ignores DEX and INT in favor of CHA & WIS), your lesser defenses will really start to suck.

The feats you can pick up at paragon level are minor boosts. I suppose the 'best' (most prudent) aproach would be to pick two secondary stats that work for your class and add to different defenses than your primary stat, boost them evenly, and take the corresponding defense-boosting Feats at paragon. Over 30 levels, you get +15 to all defenses, +4 from your primary stat, +2 from secondary stats, +2 feats, and +6 enhancement, which should give you a relatively even +25 to your non-AC defenses. If monsters attacks are all going up at about 1/level, you are behind, but not in the realm of auto-hits. Obviously, your class (and possibly race) bonuses make you a little better on some defenses.

 

[Spatula]

You may be missing the neck slot items that all provide an equivalent boost to the magic pluses of armor.

That falls apart somewhat when you start getting to the masterwork armors. The top-tier heavy armors are 6 points of AC above the regular varities, in addition to the enhancement bonus. Given the way the classes are structured, you're almost certainly going to have one incredibly weak defense at high levels - possibly two if you don't heavily invest in your class' secondary ability score.

 

[Kaelkatar]

Assuming
Primary stat is 26 at 30 (Example DEX)
Secondary stat is 24 at 30 (Example WIS)
Both are not they same save category
Other Category has at least a 14 at 30 (Example CON)
Class offers highest two
+6 neck

SAVE - Base + Mod + Class + Enh + Feat
REF - 25 + 8 + 1 + 6 + 0 = 40
WILL - 25 + 7 + 1 + 6 + 0 = 39
FORT - 25 + 2 + 0 + 6 + 2 = 35

L30 red dragon attacks with 35 vs Ref, using this as a baseline, you have


95% hit
85% hit
80% hit

That is a baseline, better stats, more defense feats, using a shield, magical buffs, and attack debuffs all change this further. Also the other L30 monster attacks with 33 and 32 vs non AC defenses, so thats another 10%-15%.

 

[Byronic]

Over 30 levels, you get +15 to all defenses, +4 from your primary stat, +2 from secondary stats, +2 feats, and +6 enhancement, which should give you a relatively even +25 to your non-AC defenses. If monsters attacks are all going up at about 1/level, you are behind, but not in the realm of auto-hits. Obviously, your class (and possibly race) bonuses make you a little better on some defenses.

With +25 (making it a total defence of 35) and a monster of level 30 hitting for +33, that does mean that the monster can hit you 95% of the time. This is a monster created with the rules on page 184 of the DMG.

I made a level 30 Human fighter to create a best-case scenario to show just how high the other defences could get and still be within the realm of the mechanics. I also gave him a higher ability spread to start off with (18, 16 and 16 in his highest stats)

Human fighter (with heavy shield)
Strength = 28
Dexterity = 18
Wisdom = 24
Others = High enough for feats requires)
Feats = Include Great Fortitude, Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes for extra defences

AC = 10 + 20 + 15 + 2 = 47
Fort = 10 + 9 + 15 + 2 + 1 + 6 + 2 = 45
ref = 10 + 4 + 15 + 1 + 2 + 6 + 2 = 40
Will = 10 + 7 + 15 + 1 + 6 + 2 = 41

In the best case scenario he gets hit in his lowest defences 60 - 65% of the time. Not bad at all until you realize that a non-human character who had an ability array would get hit 70 - 75% of the time.

Meanwhile enemies have an AC 44/other defence 42 and you're hitting for (about) =

9 (primary score)
15 (Level bonus)
6 (Implement/weapon bonus)
1 (some kind of feat)
3 (mixture of combat advantage, Leader buffing, paragon class or something else)
= 34 which means usually you're hitting them for 8+ so 65% of the time.

Now that I think about it, on higher levels monsters hit you more often, get hit less often, have more hitpoints then you do. It seems like a good idea that PCs at the higher levels suddenly get the ability to avoid death or resurrect themselves once per day.

 

[Stalker0]

We can't look at the numbers in a vaccum, what about paragon paths, epic destines, and high level powers?

Epic level characters get more buffs, they may get more bonuses to defenses this way.

Epic level characters get saving throw buffs, they can get rid of effects easier, etc.

 

[KarinsDad]

Epic level characters get more buffs, they may get more bonuses to defenses this way.

Epic level characters get saving throw buffs, they can get rid of effects easier, etc.

Such as.

I don't see any buffs or bonuses to defenses in the entire Epic Destinies section or in the Epic Tier Feats.

What are you talking about?

 

[Tony Vargas]

With +25 (making it a total defence of 35) and a monster of level 30 hitting for +33, that does mean that the monster can hit you 95% of the time. This is a monster created with the rules on page 184 of the DMG.

That's +25 above thier defenses at 1st level, so it'd be higher than 35, total, unless you happened to start with a 10 in a defense at 1st level.


It's been pretty clear that, with monsters generally advancing at 1/level in everything, and PCs generally advancing at 1/2 level in everything, and making up the difference with stat boosts and enhancement bonuses, that PCs /are/ going to fall behind, and not just in terms of a lowest defense, but accross the board on all the basics: basic attacks, all 4 defenses, opposed skill checks, etc.

I suppose what's supposed to make up the differance are: 1) teamwork and synergy among the party, 2) healing surges and actions points and 3) variety and potency of powers.

 

[KarinsDad]

I suppose what's supposed to make up the differance are: 1) teamwork and synergy among the party, 2) healing surges and actions points and 3) variety and potency of powers.

The issue is that there are very few defense boosts anywhere in the game system beyond 1/2 level, neck item, and stat increases. There are some, but they are few and far between.

It is not a game of defense at high level.

It is a game of offense and healing. One has to disable/kill/drive away the 30th level Dragon extremely quickly because the Dragon is going to hit with many of his against non-AC defense attacks most of the time when he uses them.

Most every low Will PC will be stunned via Frightful Presence, most every low Reflex PC will be damaged via its Breath Weapon (most PCs for 1/6th or more of their hit points), some PCs will be damaged by Inferno, all in round one.

The Dragon also has 1390 hit points. It can ignore Divine Challenge and/or Combat Challenge for a long time and target the squishier PCs.