Accidental Sales Pitches

[Imban]

Now, I run 3e D&D and quite enjoy running it. But, sometimes you just end up doing something that's 100% totally a sales pitch for a different game, and I ran into one of those during the session I GMed on Friday:

<Player> "I cast Dispel Magic on the Solei Palancis Dreadnought."
<Me> "Um... nuts. Make..."
*check sheet, write stuff down, check sheet*
<Me> "Yeah, make 14 Dispel checks. Those are 1d20+10 vs. DC 23, so you'll need a 13 or better."
*roll roll roll*
<Me> "Well... uh, let's see. He looks less resistant to electricity, less shielded... um... which one's that... no longer surrounded by a barrier of force fire, and his skin seems softer."

And, well, I think "Yeah, make 14 Dispel checks" easily qualifies as an accidental sales pitch for 4e D&D.

(For the record, I'm running a... highly modified version of War of the Burning Sky. No, Solei Palancis Dreadnoughts don't come prebuffed with 14 buffs in the normal campaign, so I'm fully to blame for this too.)

 

[Voadam]

Or perhaps Pathfinder.

 

[Imban]

See, that would have just resulted in the Dreadnought running down the characters' throats and out the other end, and still involved making dispel checks until one succeeded. Which, to be fair, would have only been three instead of 14.

 

[Henry]

Yeah, anytime I used to run a grapple in 3E - it was an advertisement for "anything BUT 3E" at the time. We had one PC so adept at all the grapple feats in a half dozen splatbooks that anytime he decided to grapple anyone who wasn't the big bad guy, the DM would just throw up his hands and say, "OK, two rounds later you've killed him." This was mostly because after spending 15 minutes to work through one of those super-grapples, the DM decided not to fight the inevitable...

 

[RangerWickett]

Wow, 14, really? For a second there I felt horrible, because I designed the Solei Palancis statblock in the 3e WotBS. I mean, at high levels, I ended up including an entry like this for some NPC statblocks:

Buff Suite disguise self, greater arcane sight, mage armor, nondetection, overland flight, resist energy (acid, fire, sonic), true seeing, ventriloquism

Or, as was the case with the final villain:

[sblock]
Due to her Multispell and Automatic Quicken Spell feats, Leska can cast up to three quickened spells per round (instead of just one), and all her spells of 3rd level or lower are automatically quickened. She has already cast mind blank and moment of prescience, and their effects are included in her stat block.

Magical Suites: Leska has three ‘suites’ of offensive spells, and three suites of defensive and enhancing spells. If alerted to the heroes’ coming, she casts all her defensive suites, and waits to cast her offensive suites for when she can target the heroes after her brief address to them. If caught off guard, her first action is to cast a quickened time stop during which she casts offensive suite one first, then defensive suite one, and if possible defensive suites two, offensive suite two, and then finally defensive suite three.

Offensive suite three represents her typical actions once combat has already begun.

Offensive Suite One takes her standard action and all her quickened spells for the round to cast, and creates challenges for her enemies, lasting the entire duration of the battle. She casts quickened mage’s sword, quickened crushing hand, quickened flaming sphere, and acid fog.

Finally, she whispers a curse, which triggers her thaumaturge contingent conjuration for summon monster IX for a pair of fiendish tyrannosaurs. Stats for these foes are provided below. She only casts this suite once the heroes are within range.

Mage’s sword: +34 (4d6+3, 19-20/x2). It makes one attack each round a chosen creature within 70 ft. She can change its target as a standard action.

Crushing hand: 246 hp, AC 20. Fort +23, Ref +16, Will +40. Atk +40. Grp +45 (2d6+12 damage). Bull rush +18. The hand resembles an articulated brass claw. It targets one creature of Leska’s choice, with a range of 280 ft. She can change who it targets as a move action.

Flaming sphere: 2d6 fire damage to creatures in the 5-ft. square (Reflex DC 27 negates). She can move it 30 ft. as a move action, with a maximum range of 280 ft.

Fiendish tyrannosaur (2): Huge magical beast (evil, extraplanar). 216 hp. AC 14. Spd 40. Atk +22 (3d6+16), improved grab, swallow whole. Grp +32. Fort +18, Ref +12, Will +8. DR 10/magic. Fire and cold resistance 10. SR 23. Darkvision. Smite good 1/day (+18 damage against good creature).

Offensive Suite Two is just battlefield control, with quickened glitterdust, quickened silence, and a quickened wayfarer’s step to get her into a better position, teleporting up to 45 ft. She finishes with her epic spell desertion of the blade.

Offensive Suite Three is Leska’s typical use of her actions once combat begins. She casts three quickened spells – usually fireball, magic missile, or touch of idiocy – then one powerful spell, such as meteor swarm, horrid wilting, acid fog, chain lightning, disintegrate, greater shout, or harm. If she has to give up her standard action to counterspell, she still casts her multiple quickened spells. If necessary, she uses a move action to direct her crushing hand or flaming sphere.


Defensive Suite One takes all of Leska’s swift and standard actions in one round to cast. It protects her for the duration of the battle with quickened protection from energy (fire), quickened fire shield, quickened freedom of movement, and greater spell immunity. This suite grants her a 120-point shield against fire damage, reduces damage from cold by half, grants immunity to grappling and effects that slow her movement, and provides unbeatable spell resistance against five spells of 8th level or lower, which she chooses based on her research of the heroes. Additionally, any creature hitting her in melee with a non-reach weapon takes d6+15 points of fire damage.

Defensive Suite Two wards her against a lot of enemy tricks, with quickened true seeing, quickened invisibility purge, quickened magic circle against chaos, and antilife shell. This lets her see through illusions and recognized polymorphed creatures, eliminates invisibility in a 210-ft. radius (particularly useful for her allies), keeps non-lawful summoned creatures from coming within 10 ft. (spell resistance applies; the other benefits of magic circle against chaos are redundant with her existing defenses), and keeps most other creatures – animals, aberrations, dragons, fey, giants, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, oozes, plants, and vermin – from approaching within 10 ft. of her.

Defensive Suite Three is least necessary, and provides some ancillary protection, with three quickened resist energy, and spell turning. This provides acid, electricity, and sonic resistance 30, and lets her turn back the first d6+4 spell levels that target her.


[/sblock]

So yeah, I guess high-level 3e could get a little heavy with the layers of magical effects.

 

[UniversalMonster]

I think that high level Tactics block (not even a stats block, if you don't count the dinosaurs..) just burned a hole in my mind!!

I ran D&D3.5 plenty- even to the epic levels--- but I guess I never went this far with the arcane stuff. When my friend Joel was running his campaign, he would talk about stuff like layered resistances, anti-magic, dispels, SR, spell penetration buffs.. etc, etc.. and it would just amaze me how they were keeping on top of all of that. It was an arms race! One of the players (the wizard player coincidentally) was just really good at keeping track of all of those things, so the Dm had to keep adapting his tactics to match him. Another player was sort of obsessed with quickened and swift spells so he had like a whole sequence of those that he was putting out.

Well, it's pretty cool to look back on anyhow.

 

[Festivus]

Or perhaps Pathfinder.

I am curious: Can you explain how the Pathfinder version of Dispel is easier than the one in 3.5?

To me, one of the bigger annoyances with 3.5 was reworking statblocks on the fly because of ability debuffs / dispells / etc. I usually just ended up winging it and being just fine but really super frustrating when you had a creature with a lot of buffs up and someone cast dispell.

 

[Voadam]

I am curious: Can you explain how the Pathfinder version of Dispel is easier than the one in 3.5?

To me, one of the bigger annoyances with 3.5 was reworking statblocks on the fly because of ability debuffs / dispells / etc. I usually just ended up winging it and being just fine but really super frustrating when you had a creature with a lot of buffs up and someone cast dispell.

Sure. the pathfinder version uses one roll and knocks out one effect only. One roll and one recalculation versus 14 rolls and recalculating up to 14 effects for the 3.5 version.

IME the big speed bumps of dispel magic were all the rolls and checking against effects and then the multiple recalculations. Taking away one effect is quick to resolve and fairly easy to recalculate.

This is one of the great innovations of PF IMO. I think its unfortunate though that they left the multi dispel in the 6th level greater dispel as we used the greater one all the time in my high level 3.5 games where the speed bump of checking and recalculation is particularly acute with characters and enemies with the resources to load up on multiple magical effects.

Dispel Magic

School abjuration; Level bard 3, cleric 3, druid 4, paladin 3, sorcerer/wizard 3

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S

Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)

Target or Area one spellcaster, creature, or object

Duration instantaneous

Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

You can use dispel magic to end one ongoing spell that has been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, or to counter another spellcaster's spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can't be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells. The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can't be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

You choose to use dispel magic in one of two ways: a targeted dispel or a counterspell.

Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make one dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level). If successful, that spell ends. If not, compare the same result to the spell with the next highest caster level. Repeat this process until you have dispelled one spell affecting the target, or you have failed to dispel every spell.
For example, a 7th-level caster casts dispel magic, targeting a creature affected by stoneskin (caster level 12th) and fly (caster level 6th). The caster level check results in a 19. This check is not high enough to end the stoneskin (which would have required a 23 or higher), but it is high enough to end the fly (which only required a 17). Had the dispel check resulted in a 23 or higher, the stoneskin would have been dispelled, leaving the fly intact. Had the dispel check been a 16 or less, no spells would have been affected.

You can also use a targeted dispel to specifically end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area (such as a wall of fire). You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way. If your caster level check is equal to or higher than the DC of that spell, it ends. No other spells or effects on the target are dispelled if your check is not high enough to end the targeted effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by summon monster), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item's caster level (DC = 11 + the item's caster level). If you succeed, all the item's magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers its magical properties. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional opening (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item's physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.

Counterspell: When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster's spell.

Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Magic 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

You choose to use dispel magic in one of three ways: a targeted dispel, an area dispel, or a counterspell:

Targeted Dispel
One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.

Area Dispel
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.

For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.

For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.

If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.

You may choose to automatically succeed on dispel checks against any spell that you have cast.

Counterspell
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.

 

[Festivus]

Sure. the pathfinder version uses one roll and knocks out one effect only. One roll and one recalculation versus 14 rolls and recalculating up to 14 effects for the 3.5 version.

IME the big speed bumps of dispel magic were all the rolls and checking against effects and then the multiple recalculations. Taking away one effect is quick to resolve and fairly easy to recalculate.

This is one of the great innovations of PF IMO. I think its unfortunate though that they left the multi dispel in the 6th level greater dispel as we used the greater one all the time in my high level 3.5 games where the speed bump of checking and recalculation is particularly acute with characters and enemies with the resources to load up on multiple magical effects.

Interesting, that seems a bit unfair compared to how it worked before. So now a single bad roll and it's bad luck for all the dispel attempts.... yet it doesn't work the same way in greater dispel (e.g. a good roll would wipe all buffs away).

I am not playing a dispelling class in our current Pathfinder game, and I have yet to DM, which was why I was asking. Interesting that they didn't change that mechanic in higher tiers, because that's where it gets to be a PITA. Lower levels wasn't such a bother, but at level 14 or so of 3.5 I started using a computer to recalculate buffs and stat blocks because it was so complex.

 

[Fifth Element]

Yeah, anytime I used to run a grapple in 3E - it was an advertisement for "anything BUT 3E" at the time.

Why do you hate 3E? Don't you realize how insulting this is to fans of the game?