Accumulating and 'Spending' Experience Points

[Taryn]

This just exacerbates the problem. The more xp you spend on extras, the further behind you fall level wise. So a pc who earned (let's say) 4000 xp could either be a 'normal' third level xp, or a 1st-level fighter with five extra feats. (Or, for that matter, a 2nd level fighter with only one extra bonus feat... or two, if he took them both at 1st level. This demonstrates that the system falls apart with a little creative accounting: depending on when he spent those xp, the same exact character with the same exact xp total might have an extra feat over himself!)

Is a 1st-level fighter with five extra feats a CR 3 encounter? I don't think so- he's gonna die in combat with a typical CR 3 monster in a round or two. Is he a CR 1 monster? I'm not sure- but I do think that two pcs who've earned the same number of xp and have the same class ought to be roughly equal.

Just my opinion, again, I like the basic idea here but there are critical issues that need addressing.

Well, for starters, it'd probably be a good thing to say that you can't deliberately level yourself down by taking an extra feat or skill. This would solve a few problems (Bad fighter, no de-leveling for you!), but... I can still see where there would be problems. And my brain just left for the holiday, so... yeah... I'll let somebody else cover the rest of the issue

 

[coyote6]

This just exacerbates the problem. The more xp you spend on extras, the further behind you fall level wise. So a pc who earned (let's say) 4000 xp could either be a 'normal' third level xp, or a 1st-level fighter with five extra feats.

He said a character couldn't have more than double the number of feats they normally would; thus, a 1st level fighter couldn't have more than 3 extra feats (no more than 2, if they're not human).

Me, I might limit it to no more extra feats than what you would otherwise have, based only on character level (i.e., bonus feats don't count).

Still, though, there would be strong incentive to buy any bonus feats as soon as possible, as they'd be cheaper that way.

You could limit the choice of feats, too -- say, nothing that requires another feat as a prereq.

 

[DeBhaal]

He said a character couldn't have more than double the number of feats they normally would; thus, a 1st level fighter couldn't have more than 3 extra feats (no more than 2, if they're not human).

Me, I might limit it to no more extra feats than what you would otherwise have, based only on character level (i.e., bonus feats don't count).

Still, though, there would be strong incentive to buy any bonus feats as soon as possible, as they'd be cheaper that way.

You could limit the choice of feats, too -- say, nothing that requires another feat as a prereq.

No .. he said a character can't have more than twice his -character level- earned feats .. specifically he said that fighter bonus feats do not count towards this value.

So a first level fighter, could have 1 extra feat.


But that doesn't solve the problem of a higher level character paying more to earn a feat, than a lower level character ... Even if the percentage of the spending is the same.

Emphasis mine
Furthermore, you cannot have more than double the number of feats that you would normally have at your current character level (bonus feats for class or race excluded). Thus a 6th level human fighter would normally have 8 feats, but could purchase 3 extra (at a cost of 4200 XP each) for a total of 11. Any extra feats bought in this fashion should be carefully noted.

 

[ViciousPenguin]

Hey, thanks for your interest in this post. Let me address some of your comments / concerns:

Unfortunately, it seems more complex (read: confusing) for the players and it's very difficult to keep accurate records of the party's power level for the GM.

Well, I think my players are smart enough to handle the added complexity, and power level has, in my estimation, as much to do with tactics, spell selection, etc., as it does with level anyway.

This runs into the same problem that all other systems that allow you to earn 'extra' feats and the like does: how do you rate a character with extra feats as far as a challenge goes?

Is a 1st-level human fighter with ten feats instead of three still a CR 1 challenge? (Even if you discard the CR system entirely, which I think ain't a bad idea at all, you still need to weigh how much of a challenge this will be for the pcs, and how much reward they should get for overcoming said challenge.)

As I noted above, it’s my estimation that power level cannot be directly related to character level anyway. The CR system is, at best, a guesstimate– one that I find to be woefully inaccurate as often as not. As for rewarding XP for PC’s with ‘extra’ feats and such, I have a solution for that but it’s very off topic.

Also note, I put a limit on the number of additional feats that one could acquire in this fashion: 1 per 3 levels. Perhaps I was not clear enough about this as a couple of you seem to have gotten confused about it.

What would happen if, in your example of the 6th level fighter who took 3 extra feats, he suffered a negative level? And then, worse, what would happen if he failed his save later and actually lost that level? What would happen to the extra feat? Would he keep it?

Excellent point, and something that hadn’t occurred to me yet. I would have to say that one looses and ‘extra’ feat when they no longer have the requisite levels to support it. A little harsh, maybe, but then it’s ‘extra’.

Actually, it was the notion of magic item creation that got me thinking on this to begin with. It didn’t make sense to me that an arch-wizard with exactly the XP he needed to gain his level couldn’t even scribe a cantrip on a scroll, but a first level wizard with 100 XP can scribe several useful scrolls.

The more xp you spend on extras, the further behind you fall level wise.

Hey, it looks like you’ve caught on to the idea! Only, you seem to think this is a problem. Listen, the idea is for the PC to follow the ‘normal’ progression except under special circumstances – like when they would have to gain 3 more levels in order to get the feat they need for their prestige class. You’re supposed to be making a trade off.

Me, I might limit it to no more extra feats than what you would otherwise have, based only on character level (i.e., bonus feats don't count).

Again, perhaps I wasn’t clear enough, but this is exactly what I have proposed. Quote: “Furthermore, you cannot have more than double the number of feats that you would normally have at your current character level (bonus feats for class or race excluded).” This equates to a maximum of 1 ‘extra’ feat per 3 levels.

But that doesn't solve the problem of a higher level character paying more to earn a feat, than a lower level character

Hmmm. Maybe this is a good time to point out that higher level characters pay more for their next level too. Why shouldn’t they pay more for feats?

Thanks again for your input, everyone.

 

[DeBhaal]

Because you gain other benifits along with gaining that level. What you propose isn't tied in with a level, it's something -extra-. Which means that to gain a feat with this system, say 'Dodge' at first level costs you 700xp. But, if I wanted to get 'Dodge' at say, 2nd level, it costs 1400xp ... which is mind boggling to me, to say the least. If anything, it'd be -easier- to learn 'Dodge' after a full level of narrow misses, and flat out getting hit by enemies than otherwise.

 

[Pbartender]

It would, perhaps, be better to link the cost of extra feats to the number of feats already known, rather than the level of the character.

 

[DreamChaser]

It would, perhaps, be better to link the cost of extra feats to the number of feats already known, rather than the level of the character.

Since this system takes that into account (by limiting the number of feats you can gain by your level feats), it already does this. Just not directly.

My instinct says to reduce the overall number of XP needed. If you think about it, a 3rd level wizard can make a longsword +1 by spending 80 xp and 1,000 gold. This can be compared to a Weapon Focus feat--it provides a +1 to hit and damage but doesn't apply to anythign but itself. Or even clearer is the 320 xp longsword +2 made by a 6th level wizard.

One thing I've always liked about the majority of the XP expenditure in 3.x is that it is not such a huge amount that you are guaranteed to fall behind your fellow adventurers forever. This system shifts that paradigm.

I would say maybe 500 x level for feats (or half a level) and 250 x level (or a quarter level) for skills.

I would also add the following: for every 2 feats or 4 skill bosts a character buys, he gains the following psuedo level benefits:
--> he gains 4+con modifier hit points
--> he gains a +1 to BAB
--> his character level increases by one
--> this pseudo level does not affect any class level based abilities. it functions similarly to an ECL.

For example, Inara, the 3rd level rogue decides she wants to gain a couple new feats. She spends 1,500 XP to learn Subduing Strike and then 1,500 more to gain Skill Focus: Use Magical Device. She has now learned 2 new feats and so gains an effective level. She gains 4+Con hit points and a +1 to BAB. She is now considered a 4th level character and requires 4,000 XP to gain her next level. She cannot currently buy any new feats but if she bought any skill points they would cost her 500 xp.

I just came up with the numbers off the top of my head. I wanted it to be something that would reflect the fact that there is training going on (thus HP and BAB) and something to match up the relative power levels.

Just a thought.

DC

 

[Taryn]

I would also add the following: for every 2 feats or 4 skill bosts a character buys, he gains the following psuedo level benefits:
--> he gains 4+con modifier hit points
--> he gains a +1 to BAB
--> his character level increases by one
--> this pseudo level does not affect any class level based abilities. it functions similarly to an ECL.

For example, Inara, the 3rd level rogue decides she wants to gain a couple new feats. She spends 1,500 XP to learn Subduing Strike and then 1,500 more to gain Skill Focus: Use Magical Device. She has now learned 2 new feats and so gains an effective level. She gains 4+Con hit points and a +1 to BAB. She is now considered a 4th level character and requires 4,000 XP to gain her next level. She cannot currently buy any new feats but if she bought any skill points they would cost her 500 xp.

Something about this just seems... horribly wrong... perhaps not the most helpful of statements, but... it seems more like it would be a horrible abuse of the system, rather than a step in the right direction.

The players spend experience to get -a feat-, a very powerful thing. It is my opinion that you don't need to get other bonuses for that feat - if you had wanted the additional hit points, BAB, etc, you would have leveled up rather than spend your XP on an extra feat.

I would go with a reduced cost (600 x level sounds good -- remember, for equal CR creatures we get about 300 x level), but, also I would add in that for each prerequisite feat you need for a feat (ie: how deep is it into a particular tree), it increases the XP cost by [assign arbitrary value here] say 25 x level or so per prerequisite feat[/assign arbitrary value here].

Again, I'm of the opinion that it should cost players an equal PERCENT of their cost to level up to gain a new feat. This is balanced because it's still an equal expenditure for every character. You have to keep in mind that level 1 characters go out and kill CR 1 creatures and get 300 xp for it; level 20 characters go out and kill CR 20 creatures and get... *looks around for his DMG* 6000 for it. Now, if we do simple math (which can sometimes be difficult for some of us... like me) we find out that 300 x 20 = 6000. Gasp: The level 1 characters get the same ammount per kill as the level 20 characters IN PERCENTAGE TO THEIR LEVEL.

Ah yes, I would also increase the cost for the number of feats they've bought in the past. Again, something like 25 x level PER extra feat.

Hence, after all of that, a level 1 character buys the Mobility feat:
Base: 600 xp (600 x level [1])
Prereq: +25 xp (25 x level [1] x # of prerequisite feats [Dodge])
Bonus Feats: +0 xp (25 x level [1] x # of previously bought feats [0])

Now, that same character, at 3rd level, buys the Spring Attack feat:
Base: 1800 xp (600 x level [3])
Prereq: +150 xp (25 x level [3] x # of prerequisite feats [Dodge, Mobility])
Bonus Feats: + 75 xp (25 x level [3] x # of previously bought feats [1])
For a grand total of: 2,025 xp

I find no problem in charging my characters -that much- for a feat. They will pay it, I know how feat grabby they are. I have to restrain most of them from taking two levels in fighter for power gaming purposes (no roleplaying reason: they just wanted the two bonus feats).

 

[ViciousPenguin]

Thanks again for your thoughts. I'm glad to see that my idea has generated some discussion. Some more thoughts / responses of mine:

Because you gain other benifits along with gaining that level. What you propose isn't tied in with a level, it's something -extra-. Which means that to gain a feat with this system, say 'Dodge' at first level costs you 700xp. But, if I wanted to get 'Dodge' at say, 2nd level, it costs 1400xp ... which is mind boggling to me, to say the least. If anything, it'd be -easier- to learn 'Dodge' after a full level of narrow misses, and flat out getting hit by enemies than otherwise.

What 'other' benefits are you gaining? Let's see . . . with a new level you gain another hit die, maybe a better save, some skill points, BAB, possibly a feat, and a class ability or two. Same stuff (pretty much) every level. Nothing really new. Nothing 'other' than what you got last level. And yet each level costs proportionally more than the previous one. So, it appears that as one goes up in level it becomes more difficult to learn new things. How curious . . .

It's my intention to discourage PC's from purchasing 'extra' feats and skills in lieu of another level, which should be the most common way that XPs are spent. I can't do that unless the cost of the 'extra' feat or skill increases proportionately with the PC's level. This makes sense because as one goes up in level it becomes more difficult to learn new things (see above). I intend for such 'extras' to be available for unusual circumstances, primarily to avoid the need to gain up to 3 levels in order to be eligible for a prestige class. I do not intend for such purchases to be common.

One thing I've always liked about the majority of the XP expenditure in 3.x is that it is not such a huge amount that you are guaranteed to fall behind your fellow adventurers forever. This system shifts that paradigm.

I would say maybe 500 x level for feats (or half a level) and 250 x level (or a quarter level) for skills.

It's quite possible that the costs I've chosen are too high, although, as I've mentioned already, it's my intention to discourage the regular use of this system. What does everyone else think of this? Am I 'charging' too much?

I would also add the following: for every 2 feats or 4 skill bosts a character buys, he gains the following psuedo level benefits:

No, thank you. These are not levels. These are feats and skills, to be purchased only when truly needed. I'm not going to give "pseudo level benefits" toward the purchase of these 'extras'.

I would go with a reduced cost (600 x level sounds good -- remember, for equal CR creatures we get about 300 x level), but, also I would add in that for each prerequisite feat you need for a feat (ie: how deep is it into a particular tree), it increases the XP cost by [assign arbitrary value here] say 25 x level or so per prerequisite feat[/assign arbitrary value here].

Again, I will entertain the notion that my 'costs' are too high. Thanks for the input. As for assigning an additional cost per prerequisite, I don't see the need. The player will have already purchased the needed feats (either through this system or with the slots gained with character levels) and thus the extra price has already been paid.

Thanks again for your input. I'd like to hear more, especially regarding the cost of the 'extra' feats and skills, and whether or not they are too high.

 

[ViciousPenguin]

I use a trimmed down version of this in the games I run...

If you're still reading this thread, and it you have it written down, could you post your system? I'd be curious to see it.