Act of evil? Or just taking out the trash?

[Ravingdork]

We have a paladin of Bahamut in our group who is absolutely ardent about battling evil without mercy. Now, I know paladins can no longer lose their powers in 4th Edition, but if they break their vows/code/whatever, their church might seek to punish them for their transgressions. Their alignment might change to match their continuing deeds as well. Hopefully, you see where this is going by now.

After a successful adventure involving the tracking down and capture (via a vicious battle followed by an Intimidate check) of a known killer and heretic, the party is traveling back to the church on their horses with the prisoner in tow (being pulled along by the paladin's horse with hands bound). The heretic called out to his captor, tha paladin, and insulted his faith and threatened death and dismemberment to his loved ones (something about having powerful friends).

Suddenly, the paladin stopped his horse, dismounted, drew his sword as he made his way to the captive (who began to scream for mercy) and then brutally hacked at the tendons in the captive's legs. The paladin then remounted and began DRAGGING the now crippled heretic behind his horse. He did not survive the two day journey to the church for trial.

The other characters were too feaked out by the deed and too intimidated by the paladin to do anything about it.

Having killed a heretic of the church, the paladin likely won't suffer much more than a slap on the wrist from his superiors (it is not for you to decide who is to be punished before trial!), but I'm wondering if I should change his alignment to evil. The paladin has always been brutal and merciless in his fight against evil, but this seems to me like a new height of depravity for him.

There is also the question of what happens when his alignment changes. He can't lose his powers, but the rules clearly state he has to share the alignment of his diety, don't they? What happens if I force the change on him?

Looking for opinions on the matter. What would you, as a DM do, if anything?

 

[tombowings]

Alignment doesn't really matter, at all. And in all honesty, he sounds pretty unaligned, rather than evil or lawful good, to me.

 

[Mort_Q]

Killing the helpless prisoner you were sent to capture alive 'cause he insulted you?

Insubordinate! Cowardly! Someone needs to atone for their weakness.

 

[FadedC]

Well he certainly would have lost his paladinhood in 3e. You could make an argument for killing him, but certainly not for tortuting him to death. That's both evil and chaotic.

4e though has no hard and fast rules. Asking if something is evil in the game would be similar to asking if something if evil in the real world. You just have to make a judgement call, or just think about what others would think of his actions and what judgement calls they would make.

Personally I think the church of bahamut would be pretty horrified, but that's just me.

 

[Syrsuro]

Nothing.

One (provoked) act does not an alignment shift make.

On the other hand, since he was witnessed doing this by every person along the road and none of them likely knew who he was or why he was doing this he may find that he is infamous as a cruel and evil man and many people and authorities will refuse to associate with him.

Who knows - perhaps he will find himself hunted down by some other Paladin.

Carl

 

[Mr. Teapot]

but I'm wondering if I should change his alignment to evil.

I'd ask the player if he thinks it's an evil act, and leave alignment conversion up to him. Since there's no mechanical difference, there's no reason you should go mucking around with his character concept without permission. NPCs can still react well or badly to the act, regardless of what alignment is listed on his sheet.

 

[That One Guy]

Bahamut is a deity of justice. Justice != torture, nor losing one's composure so quickly. I think his superiors might reassign him to a position of helping the poor and suffering to try and encourage a sense of kindness and nobility. If his violent tendencies continued, a temporary discharge would be given, or a distant reassignment. If THAT failed, dishonourable discharge. He would lose his knighthood and no longer be able to claim himself as a knight of bahamut. If he continued to do so, he would be regarded as a blackguard and the Justiciary would come and destroy him.

...at least... that's how I'd do it.

Why so severe? It is a tenet of Tiamat, "Forgive no slight and leave no wrong unpunished."

He is following the laws of Bahamut's greatest rival. This would be a HUGE GIANT WARNING to any of the knights who learned of his deeds. Like, serious, "Oh crap, dudes, this guy's going evil."

 

[Wolfwood2]

So this scumbag, a known murderer, threatens the paladin's loved ones and brags about how his powerful friends are going to get him off. You know what, I can see the player's interest in playing a different kind of paladin. The standard response would have been to ignore the guy and trust in the rule of law... but isn't it a poorer game where characters have to be that predictable?

Questions of good and evil aside, that was a very exciting and character-defining response. It said pretty clearly that this paladin is a guy who will do his due diligence to take prisoners. Once. If you keep giving him trouble after that, then he will take matters into his own hands in the most brutal fashion possible. He obviously also has a hair-trigger temper.

I wouldn't seek to punish him, exactly, but folks are going to know who he is and how far he's willing to go. (It's obvious he makes no effort to hide it.) Some will admire him, some will fear him, many will mistrust him.

As for consequences, assuming the bad guy wasn't full of hot air, then aren't his powerful friends now going to seek some payback?

 

[mlund]

Let's see now.

We have a known criminal and heretic who took up arms against the rightful forces of justice. He was defeated by arms and his life spared. Then, in the charge of his captors who had shown him mercy this fool blasphemed against the deity who's servant had shown him mercy and threatened further bodily harm to innocents?

The Paladin should have cut the fool's head off and put it on a pike.

You do not threaten the innocent around a Paladin. You don't blaspheme against his deity after throwing yourself on said deity's mercy either. Such an act is a breach of hospitality.

Paladins aren't stupid, and most times justice for a capital criminal is simply death at the hands of a righteous man rather than a mob. Severe crimes sometimes have severe punishments, including ugly deaths that set examples for other law-breakers. In most cases Lawful Good powers will be more inclined to enforcing these severe punishments because they understand the critical importance of deterrence to an ordered society and have a better handle on exactly how broad the scope of harm can be for crimes like Treason, Heresy, and Mutiny.

- Marty Lund

 

[DracoSuave]

Bahamut is the god of Justice, Honor, Nobility, and Protection.

How is it Just to torture a man to death before his trial?
How is it honourable or noble to torture a man to death at all?
Who -exactly- is he protecting by doing this?



You're right, Paladins aren't stupid, so why would they react so feverishly to the insults of a broken defeated man, hoping to rationalize it later? We don't let guards or cops get away with it in OUR Lawful society.