Adding Class Templates to Monsters

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

When adding a class template, e.g., fighter, cleric, rogue, etc, to a monster, thereby adding class powers to a monster, does one use the standard attack modifiers and damage expressions for monsters, or do you use the the attack and damage formulas stated by the actual class power? Or is it mainly the DM's call insofar as what to do exactly? I've noticed that sometimes some class powers are, seemingly, underpowered if one uses the formula of the actual power, but then sometimes, using the standard attack and damage expressions for monsters is sometimes, seemingly, overpowered. Thus, I'm thinking that it's primarily a DM's call insofar as what to do exactly, but I thought I'd get some thoughts on the matter. Thanks.

 

[keterys]

Use the monster damage expressions. You're not giving them gear, so there's no real way to calculate how it would actually work out.

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

Hmm. Don't you think that can be unbalanced in some cases? For example, I'm adding a Ranger template to an existing level 30 monster, and the power; Three-in-One Shot:

Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC, three attacks. If the first attack hits,
you gain a +5 bonus to the second and third attack rolls.
If the first attack misses, roll the second and third attacks
normally.
Hit: 2[W] + Dexteriity modifier per attack.
Miss: Half damage.

Thus, if I use the standard damage expression for a 30th level monster attacking one creature, that would be 4d8 + 20 damage, and then it says to increase the damage for encounter powers 25-50%, thus, just in using the 25% increase, that would add +13 to the damage, and thus, we would have:

Attack 1 damage: 4d8 + 20 + 13
Attack 2 damage: 4d8 + 20 + 13
Attack 3 damage: 4d8 + 20 + 13
If all attacks hit, that would be, 12d8 + 60 + 39 damage.

Don't you think that is a bit much?

 

[the Jester]

Hmm. Don't you think that can be unbalanced in some cases? For example, I'm adding a Ranger template to an existing level 30 monster, and the power; Three-in-One Shot:

Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC, three attacks. If the first attack hits,
you gain a +5 bonus to the second and third attack rolls.
If the first attack misses, roll the second and third attacks
normally.
Hit: 2[W] + Dexteriity modifier per attack.
Miss: Half damage.

Thus, if I use the standard damage expression for a 30th level monster attacking one creature, that would be 4d8 + 20 damage, and then it says to increase the damage for encounter powers 25-50%, thus, just in using the 25% increase, that would add +13 to the damage, and thus, we would have:

Attack 1 damage: 4d8 + 20 + 13
Attack 2 damage: 4d8 + 20 + 13
Attack 3 damage: 4d8 + 20 + 13
If all attacks hit, that would be, 12d8 + 60 + 39 damage.

Don't you think that is a bit much?

But you don't deal that encounter damage three times for using one encounter power, you deal it once.

In this case, for instance, you are dealing 38 average damage + 25% to 50%; I'm gonna go high because there are three attacks here. So say 57 damage expected- that works out to 19 points expected per attack. So make each attack, say, 2d8+10 damage.

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

Ah. I see. I'm working on a Frost Giant Ranger right now, and given that I selected a few ranger powers that have mutiple attacks, I'm very curious to see how it all pans out after I'm done. Thanks for the help.

 

[keterys]

Basically, multiattacks are a big deal for players... but not so big a deal for monsters.

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

But you don't deal that encounter damage three times for using one encounter power, you deal it once.

In this case, for instance, you are dealing 38 average damage + 25% to 50%; I'm gonna go high because there are three attacks here. So say 57 damage expected- that works out to 19 points expected per attack. So make each attack, say, 2d8+10 damage.

I think understand your math, and your formula appears to work; but, in your formula, where are you getting the idea of taking the average amount of damage of a given attack and plugging it into the formula? Is it some sort of implicit math-thing? *note: I suck at math* Maybe you could make an actual formula with notations, for me, for these kind of attack powers for monsters?

 

[keterys]

I'd actually suggest going a different route and giving it a 3-target attack instead. Then it can be 38-48 per target (38 expected, -.25 for multiple targets, +.25 - .5 for encounter)

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

Yes, I'm about to do something like that, because, on one hand, the power i chose is too strong given my original formula, but weak, given Jester's suggestion (granted, it has 3 chances to crit though).
Another thing I don't understand with the new (-ish) damage expressions is, what about monster powers that are listed as, "Double Attack"? For example "Effect: x makes two claw attacks." On one hand, if it attacks only one creature twice, the new damage table would suggest you use the single target coulmn, but, on the other hand, if the monster attacks two seperate creatures with "Double Attack," it would use the multiple target cloumn? Thus, "Double Attack," would have two different damage expressions depending on how many creatures the monster attacked with it? That seems a bit whacky.

 

[keterys]

Yeah, that's the other complication. You're using an elite, so you should have 50 to 100% more damage output anyways

Which would bring a triple shot back to 38 per shot... or 104 for a full volley, even on one target.

Oh, and don't forget to take Disruptive Strike. Nothing says loving like a 38 damage interrupt that makes you miss.