Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[BobTheNob]

Wow, this was hotly contested. I had signed out of it (was just getting too argumentative for me) but then something occured to me.

I was jacked off that it was such a pissy power when compared to some of the alternatives. I didnt like that it wasnt nearly as potents as more cheesy builds could offer. Someone did rightly point out that the sum of a PP is its whole, not one ability. Still left a bitter taste in my mouth that cheese builds (especially student of caiphon...just how many avenger/warlocks are there people!! Play a theme for $&*# sake) offered crit ratings that were so much (a full 8% for just a 19) better.

But ya know something that is crackerjack out this ability. If you can summon the stats to get weapon mastery (i.e. sacrifice some dex to stack strength) or use a jagged weapon...this stacks with it. In fact, its the only example of a crit chance increase that does (which I know of).

Put the whole debate aside (because the point of having raised it in the first place was to address the inherent weakness of this ability) and remember, this might not offer much crit rating, but it stacks. So, its not really as bad as I thought it in the first place. If you dont get your crit rating down by other means, and therefore have nothing to stack against, it remains piss weak (an extra crit every 44 rounds in ideal circumstances) but given I would be willing to make the strength sacrifice required to get weapon mastery, this is looking alot better.

 

[Nifft]

Governing rules don't exist?

Don't be disingenuous. Of course they exist -- that's why I was able to point to one as an example.

But you seem to think they have "special rights" to not be overridden by specific rules.

That's simply incorrect. Specific always trumps general.

Cheers, -- N


@ BobTheNob: Sure it stacks with Jagged, but Jagged is terrible at high level, because the ongoing damage won't stack with itself. Bloodiron is teh sexy.

Also, if the generous "2 + 2 = crit" interpretation holds, this ability adds about +0.25 to expected accuracy (turning a few misses into hits). That's worth something.

 

[BobTheNob]

Don't be disingenuous. Of course they exist -- that's why I was able to point to one as an example.

But you seem to think they have "special rights" to not be overridden by specific rules.

That's simply incorrect. Specific always trumps general.

Cheers, -- N


@ BobTheNob: Sure it stacks with Jagged, but Jagged is terrible at high level, because the ongoing damage won't stack with itself. Bloodiron is teh sexy.

Also, if the generous "2 + 2 = crit" interpretation holds, this ability adds about +0.25 to expected accuracy (turning a few misses into hits). That's worth something.

Its ok Nifft, I have been on your side of the debate all along, and still are. I agree with your interpretation 100%.

Just wanted to keep perspective on this whole thing. The reason I started this thread was to address what looked like an unnecessarily piss weak ability. Just pointing out its not so piss weak after all.

 

[Flipguarder]

Honestly I think we are just on two sides of a fence.

I believe Draco and I are of the opinion that the phrase can crit, and do crit are synonymous within D&D sourcebooks. I think it is too legalistic to read any other way.


I feel that the precision rule isn't a case of specific versus general. I believe the percision rule is stated TO GOVERN those cases in which additional options to crit are given. It is stated to clarify that those powers, feats etc. that give more options to critically hit something don't automatically hit.

I understand that you believe there is a difference between the two phrases. I feel that is a reasonable conclusion, I simply don't agree with it.

*hugs*

 

[BobTheNob]

Right back at ya

*manly nudge on the shoulder*

 

[Nifft]

Its ok Nifft, I have been on your side of the debate all along, and still are. I agree with your interpretation 100%.

Just wanted to keep perspective on this whole thing. The reason I started this thread was to address what looked like an unnecessarily piss weak ability. Just pointing out its not so piss weak after all.

Sorry if my tone was confrontational rather than "ooo, yeah, and check this out too"... investigative, I guess?

I do agree that there are some uses and interesting implications of the ability, even if it's not that strong.

Honestly I think we are just on two sides of a fence.
(...)
I feel that is a reasonable conclusion, I simply don't agree with it.

Hey, my position has always been that both are reasonable readings, and the rules need to be clarified... so we agree at last.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Flipguarder]

the rules need to be clarified... so we agree at last.

No I don't think it needs to be clarified...




HA HA GOTCHA!

YAY CLOSURE!

 

[Mirtek]

Let's compare the situation to other specific vs. general cases.

General: You can not shift while prone
Specific: Power X (e.g. the aforementioned overhelming strike) saying "Hit: whater and you shift X squares."

Would you say that the power overrules the general no shift rule because it says you shift? Even without the power mentioning that it intends to lift the general rule about prone movement?

 

[N8Ball]

I feel that is a reasonable conclusion, I simply don't agree with it.

No I don't think it needs to be clarified...

Really?

 

[CovertOps]

Let's compare the situation to other specific vs. general cases.

General: You can not shift while prone
Specific: Power X (e.g. the aforementioned overhelming strike) saying "Hit: whater and you shift X squares."

Would you say that the power overrules the general no shift rule because it says you shift? Even without the power mentioning that it intends to lift the general rule about prone movement?

Note my changes to your text. I think you got it wrong while nailing it right on Mirtek.

General: Power X (e.g. the aforementioned overhelming strike) saying "Hit: whater and you shift X squares."
Specific: You can not shift while prone

The power in this case is the general rule allowing you to shift X squares which then needs to be filtered through the specific rules on shifting. Can't shift while prone, can't shift through difficult terrain, etc. I think the power in question is the same way. It gives you a critical hit which then needs to be filtered through the specific critical hit rules (Precision). RAW: You can miss with double 2's if 2 is not high enough to hit. RAI: I think the designers intent was that you can hit AND crit with double 2's just because it's a cool mechanic.