Adent Champion. Rules lawyers required

[Eldorian]

Nifft does have a point. Precision is the general rule in this scenario (its the rule of thumb designed to cover numerous scenarios), Holy Ador is specific (it covers one scenario for one PP). Not the other way around.

If you want to argue that specific trumps general, then Holy Ador crits on matching rolls regardless of hit or miss chance.

But put the "it has this word" and the "look at page XXX sub paragraph YYY" into your back pocket and think about this.

Its a defining PP ability and should be potent and defining. Unfortunately, if you have to hit to get this extra crit chance...its piss weak. If you allow to crit even when its a miss its nearly ass good as other PP crit boosts and you get an almost insignificant boost to to hit.

If you want to peak into the minds of the designers and figure out what they intended (before Sally the typist made a mistake leading us to this rules lawyer debate) crunch the numbers and compare.

Without new evidence, it has to be RAW and RAI that hit or miss the crit applies on a double roll.

The rule precision is a very specific rule about powers and class features that allow critical hits on rolls other than 20. The paragon path feature is a rule that is referenced BY the precision rule.

And the paragon path ability doesn't need to be awesome. I can point out several rather crappy paragon path abilities, powers, etc. The paragon path we're talking about has some pretty decent powers, and its level 16 ability is nice. It's not like ALL it has is the crit on doubles ability.

 

[Flipguarder]

Outside of actual rules and language, it makes much more sense that it's not an automatic hit.

 

[BobTheNob]

The rule precision is a very specific rule about powers and class features that allow critical hits on rolls other than 20. The paragon path feature is a rule that is referenced BY the precision rule.

And the paragon path ability doesn't need to be awesome. I can point out several rather crappy paragon path abilities, powers, etc. The paragon path we're talking about has some pretty decent powers, and its level 16 ability is nice. It's not like ALL it has is the crit on doubles ability.

I think we are confusing what is a specific rule vs a specifically worded rule. I agree, precision is very specifically worded rule. However the rule is designed to cover the bulk of cases in the game, and therefore (specifically worded as it may be) is by nature a general rule.

Wording in PHB, page 11
"If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins"

There is one thing I have no doubt of at the moment. We all have very different ideas of what the "clear" solution is here.

(p.s. I am actually finding this an interesting discussion and am now at the point of contributing not specifically to resolve this case, but more to help me understand how to adudicate similar issues in future. Keep it coming, this is interesting)

 

[N8Ball]

Outside of actual rules and language, it makes much more sense that it's not an automatic hit.

Well I can agree with that, but bobthenob makes a good point about the *really* low power level in that case. That is, it would only apply in about 9 out of 400 attacks, assuming normal hit chances. (and even less once you get mastery).

Reading it that way also nerfs the 16th level feature as well.

As others have pointed out, once you actually look at the likelihood of this feature activating, the more restrictive approach (no auto hit) make this PP pretty damn weak.

The more permissive reading only makes the path a contender among several other good options. So strictly from a balance (compared to other PP) perspective, I would read it more permissive. (although I also think the RAW and RAI support this position as well)

 

[Eldorian]

As others have pointed out, once you actually look at the likelihood of this feature activating, the more restrictive approach (no auto hit) make this PP pretty damn weak.

Why is the PP weak if this one paragon path ability is read to only crit when you hit?

 

[N8Ball]

Why is the PP weak if this one paragon path ability is read to only crit when you hit?

I didn't think the rest of the PP powers and features were good enough to stand on their own in light of other good PP options.

Ardent Action - for an AP feature, this is pretty good stuff.

Holy Ardor (restrictive read) - nearly worthless at a 1 in 40 chance of being activated

Ardent Fury - Would be good if it didn't rely on crits to activate...hmmm now that I think about it, I forgot that Avengers crit almost 10%... this power is better than I thought before.

Fanatical Fury - good power, par for 11th level powers.

Battle Rapture - Strong damage boost, but a nasty disincentive for your allies to help you. (?!) This invites generally bad tactics (spliting damage among enemies)

Irresistible Ardor - standard 20th level goodness, not game-changing, but good.

On futher reading and realization this path is more passable that I thought previously. The 16th level feature is nice when you realize that you'll get the extra attack in 1/10 as opposed to 1/20 of the time. I certainly don't think that another 9/400 chances for a crit will break the power bank, but I guess it could stand by itself.

 

[Mirtek]

you can never be buffed so high you hit on a one.

You can be buffed so high that rolling a 1 would generate a sufficiently high result.

rolling a one is an auto miss

And for this reason it's repeated in the PP feature lest people start to argue that a double 1 is turned into a crit as long as it's enough to hit. And that's why this added reminder is not redundant

None of these things you mentioned say "you score a critical hit". They all say "you can score a critical hit" - meaning possibility not certainty.

Which is completly unimportant as seen by so many movement granting powers.

 

[Flipguarder]

And for this reason it's repeated in the PP feature lest people start to argue that a double 1 is turned into a crit as long as it's enough to hit. And that's why this added reminder is not redundant

That may be the most intelligent thing I've read all day. Granted I have been readin Ayn Rand...

 

[ObsidianCrane]

Why are people seperating "hit" from "critical"?

The language of the game is "critical hit" they are not distinct terms in their use, and the existence of the word "hit" in the sentance does not in anyway imply that the attack is a hit.

Further the text of the power in no way trumps the following specific rules.

ATTACK RESULTS
When you make an attack, compare your attack roll to the appropriate defense score of the target.
✦ Hit: If the attack roll is higher than or equal to the defense score, the attack hits and deals damage, has a special effect, or both.
Automatic Hit: If you roll a natural 20 (the die shows a 20), your attack automatically hits.
Critical Hit: If you roll a natural 20 (the die shows a 20), your attack might be a critical hit (page 278). A critical hit deals maximum damage, and some powers and magic items have an extra effect on a critical hit.

Critical Hits
When you roll a natural 20 and your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense, you score a critical hit, also known as a crit.

Natural 20: If you roll a 20 on the die when making an attack roll, you score a critical hit if your total attack roll is high enough to hit your target’s defense. If your attack roll is too low to score a critical hit, you still hit automatically.

In short nothing to see here move along, just a hedge of misuse of rules.

 

[BobTheNob]

Why is the PP weak if this one paragon path ability is read to only crit when you hit?

Can I answer that with a question? Does it matter?

Fact is that one ability, if you twist your thinking in the non favorable manner, it is singularly lack luster.

If however you take the permissive approach (which by my perception is actually RAW until someone can prove to me the Precision is NOT the general rule, and I repeat, its not wording that makes a rule specific, its breadth of application) it puts the power on par with similar crit effecting PP's.

So the question becomes, if by interpreting permissibly the net result is that the power goes from lackluster to passable (and balanced against other PP's)...why wouldn't you?

Further the text of the power in no way trumps the following specific rules.

We really have to get our heads around what specific vs general is. Specific does not mean "thoroughly worded" or "well documented". Specific means that the rule applies to a limited subset.

Likewise a "General" rule is not one with ambiguous of loose wording. It means a rule with a breadth that covers the normal case of the game dynamic.

So all the normal rules regarding crits (natural 20 is a crit is can hit, natural 20 is the only automatic hit, yada yada) are very clearly worded and I am glad we understand them, but they are the General Rules.

Therefore, given Holy Ardor is a specific rule (as defined by the fact that it pertain to a much narrower game subset) that conflicts with these, the rule of specific trumps general applies, and therefore the two rolls hit regardless of whether it would naturally have been a miss.