Adjudication of Charm Person...??

Azzemmell

First Post
Lo',

In all the years I've run games, I've only had one player use charm person and I've never used it against my players. One reason is the ambigious, in my mind, description. How do you, in your games, describe the effects to players? How do you run it mechanics wise? Any variants???


Thanks

Azz
 

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DonAdam

Explorer
I've never found it that hard to adjudicate.

The spell description is deceptively simple: it makes the other person your friend. That's it. If you give it any more power than that, it rapidly becomes a broken spell.

Note the difference between this and suggestion and dominate. You shouldn't let it do things that those spells do.

The target keeps all of his own motivations, dispositions, and goals. Charming the big evil fighter that your party is fighting might make him try to get between you and your allies, to protect you from "those bad men."

Note that in combat, when the character can't stop and talk as much, the spell is much more limited.

Soldiers won't disobey orders unless it is a minor issue. Opponents won't switch sides in combat. The opponent will probably try to:
a) slaughter the caster's companions, "saving" him
b) reach a peaceful resolution
c) surrender

I do rule that if the player betrays the target's friendship that the target will act exactly as if one of his friends had betrayed him.
 

LokiDR

First Post
Vampire Spawn

I filled a city in a recent campaign with dominated towns people and vampire spawn. Any time the spawn were encountered they would attack, and then try to use their charm person ability.

The only character they kept getting was the fighter. It more or less took him out of the combat. He would attack the others, but they stepped away and the "friend" asked him not to attack his other friends.

It is a very weak ability in combat, with the +5 bonus it gives oppents, but if you have a whole lot of chances to make it work...
 

Steverooo

First Post
Agree

I agree with Don & Loki. It makes someone your friend. It does not make your friends their friends. It doesn't change their morals or ethics (If your friend came and asked you to help kill another one of your friends, most folks would say no). It doesn't MAKE the character do anything they wouldn't, ordinarily, except maybe put up with the caster. It DOES keep him from doing thing he ordinarily might, such as attack, kill, harass, or otherwise treat the caster in an unfriendly manner...
 

Azzemmell

First Post
Hmm,

Yes, I see the light now. :) I guess I had always thought of it as having more of an effect. But when you suggest (no pun intended) the comparison between it and dominate or suggestion, the spell becomes clearer. I suppose it would be much more usefull in a non-combat situation. Hey!! Maybe that's what it was designed for!!! :) It still seems to be a very powerfull spell, especially in a situation where it might effect a large part of the PC party as they are trying to combat, say, a vampire or such. "What are you standing there for, Kreg? Lop his head off!!" Essentially a sanctuary-type effect for the caster against any sods who miss thier saves.




Azz
 

Gizzard

First Post
If you give it any more power than that, it rapidly becomes a broken spell.

Do you think the spell gives the affected PC some magic ability to maintain the illusion of friendship also? If it doesnt grant that, then the rest of the party just shouts out, "If the Necromancer is such a good friend, then just tell us his name. You cant? Well, then he Charmed you, didn't he?"

Lately, I've been ruling that the affected PC is also implanted with some sort of plausible magic memories which back up the Charm effect. If people start over-stressing these memories, then additional saves are allowed. But this is clearly a house rule.

I'd be curious how others are dealing with this in-game.
 

Uller

Adventurer
Azzemmell said:
Hmm,

Yes, I see the light now. :) I guess I had always thought of it as having more of an effect. But when you suggest (no pun intended) the comparison between it and dominate or suggestion, the spell becomes clearer. I suppose it would be much more usefull in a non-combat situation. Hey!! Maybe that's what it was designed for!!! :) It still seems to be a very powerfull spell, especially in a situation where it might effect a large part of the PC party as they are trying to combat, say, a vampire or such. "What are you standing there for, Kreg? Lop his head off!!" Essentially a sanctuary-type effect for the caster against any sods who miss thier saves.

Azz

Yes. It is a very powerful non-combat spell. In our last session, we were caught in an army that was cornered by an enemy army. We had to talk our way out to prevent the wholesale slaughter of all of our troops...our bard charmed the enemy leader in a meeting we had with him (we have a house rule that allowed the bard to do this secretly). The bard convinced the enemy leader to let us go...but since the spell has only a 1 hour/level duration, it only served to give us a short headstart...so it helped an entire army escapce immediate doom...but we still have to escape the pursuing enemy in the next session.

That is another important limitatoin...when used in RP situations, the subject of charm will probably realize he was the victim of an enchantment of some sort and will likely be angry about it. There is a good chance he won't keep in bargains struck and he certainly won't consider the caster to be a friend in the future (without another casting of the spell).
 

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
DonAdam said:


Soldiers won't disobey orders unless it is a minor issue. Opponents won't switch sides in combat. The opponent will probably try to:
a) slaughter the caster's companions, "saving" him
b) reach a peaceful resolution
c) surrender

Frankly, I think with options like this you are completely neutering the spell.

You should be comparing it with sleep and magic missile to get an idea of its effectiveness.

The idea of a charmed foe "saving him from those other guys" strikes me as stupid DM metagaming to neutralise the effectiveness of the spell.

Probably the best way of handling it is that it magically forces someone into a "friendly" attitude - and it is up the the character to make a diplomacy check (or Cha check) to attempt to improve that up to "helpful" - which takes time and a shared language.

This would take DM fiat out of the picture slightly, and would reward the arcane caster who has bothered to get some diplomacy skills.
 

SevenSir

First Post
Frankly, I think with options like this you are completely neutering the spell.

You should be comparing it with sleep and magic missile to get an idea of its effectiveness.

Heck, no. Magic Missile is purely a combat spell. You can never do anything with it but damage. Perhaps the flashiness might, might, help you to force an easily impressed enemy to retreat. And Sleep, well Sleep is also geared toward combat, although it does have some subtlety to it that could be useful in a role-playing situtation.

Charm Person cannot be compared to Sleep or Magic Missile to extrapolate how powerfully its effect should function in combat, because it is intended to function best outside of combat. Playing D&D is not limited to dungeon exploration and gold hoarding. Any campaign which does not just throw PCs into combat encounter after combat encounter will have use for Charm Person.

The example of a bard charming an enemy general in order to save the army's skin is perfect.
 

Elder-Basilisk

First Post
The other thing to consider is the amount of exception, characters are willing to make for their friends. A chaotic evil blackguard might sacrifice his friends last--unless his god demanded that particular sacrifice, in which case, he's probably sacrifice his friend anyway. On the other hand, he might readily betray some of his useful idiot companions for someone he thought was really his friend.

A paladin is unlikely to let a murderer escape just because he's a friend. He'd probably be kind to him, heal him and make sure that his manacles weren't too uncomfortable but he'd try to stop the murderer from getting away.

Charming the Lawful Neutral Pholtan Inquisitor is likely to get the charmer exactly nowhere. It makes no difference that he is a friend; the law is the law and it must be obeyed.

On the whole, charms are more effective on less strictly principled characters and less effective the stricter a character's principles are. I tend to think that good characters (and certain kinds of Lawful neutrals) are less vulnerable to charms as well since their principles aren't based on convenience and at least lawful good characters often feel an obligation to obey the spirit as well as the letter of their rules.

So, in addition to what the others have said, the personality of the character needs to be taken into account.
 

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