Advantage & Disadvantage - Looking for a synopsis

Ferox4

First Post
The biggest difference is more in how DCs work; they don't scale nearly as much as in previous editions, they only very rarely get modified, most circumstantial modifiers are part of Advantage/Disadvantage and so on. There's a fixed table of generic difficulties that DMs can use for practically all actions, allowing for quick DM adjucation based on its superficial difficulty (ie. if something's Very Hard to do, it's DC 25).

Mind, it's also one of the things that 3.5e players tend to have the hardest time with. 5e doesn't pretend to be a cohesive theory of everything physics-wise, so you have to get used to the game not being a pseudo-simulation.

Hmmm... that's quite the different dynamic. Not bad, simply different. Proves the point others have made about 3.x players having difficulty changing to 5E. Initially I liked the 3.x exactitude of Skills and a PCs ability to succeed or fail at a given task. I don't mind the Skill dynamic, however it limits some characters ability to do important things.
 

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Ferox4

First Post
The subtle distinction that makes a world of difference is that in 5e, they are only used to determine the result of a situation that has both an uncertain outcome and dramatic consequences.

This shift in thinking is why a lot of 3e (and to a lesser extent 4e players) have trouble making the shift. In 3e especially, there was an effort to take DM judgment out of the task resolution system. If you wanted to do a thing, you made a roll, because that was how the game’s engine worked. In 5e, the DM’s judgment is an essential part of the system. The player describes what they want to accomplish and how their character is trying to accomplish it, and the DM asks themselves, “can this approach succeed in achieving its goal? Can it fail to achieve its goal? Is there a cost or consequence for failing to achieve this goal?” and only if the answer to all three questions is yes does the DM call for a roll to be made. YMMV, but in my 5e games, checks are actually pretty rare, because most of the time the results of an action are easy enough to determine without that random element, and in many of the cases where the outcome is uncertain enough to merit a dice roll to resolve it, there aren’t actually any costs or consequences if it fails.

A good example of where the difference comes in is with the simple act of picking a lock. In 3e, the character comes across a locked door and says, “I want to pick the lock, can I make an Open Lock check?” and unless there’s anything that would prevent them from attempting to pick the lock like a spell or a trap, the DM would say yes. The player would make their check. On a high enough result they would pick it, on too low of a result they would fail, and in either case they wouldn’t be able to attempt again because the roll represented their best effort.

In 5e, that situation would go very differently. The player would encounter the locked door, and if they asked to roll thieves’ tools, the DM might say something like “I’m hearing you want to unlock the door by picking the lock with your thieves’ tools?” to make sure they have the correct goal and approach. Then the DM would ask themselves if the action can succeed (which it probably can, unless the DC is higher than the character can achieve on a natural 20 or they lack proficiency in Thieves’ Tools), if it can fail (which it probably can, unless the character has a particular high-level Rogue feature), and if it has a cost or consequence for failure. Now this is where things can get pretty different. If the time it takes to attempt to pick the lock is a meaningful cost (for example, if it will trigger a check for wandering monsters, or if the room is filling up with poison gas and every second counts), or if something bad happens on a failure (like a trap triggering), then the DM would call for a Dexterity check plus any relevant proficiency bonus (probably thieves tools). But if the attempt doesn’t cost the charactee anything meaningful and failure doesn’t cause anything to happen beyond the door still being locked, then it’s assumed the character just takes as much time to do it as they need and the DM narrates the action’s eventual success.

Ok, point taken. I get it.

5E seems like a move to give the DM/GM more control of not only the narrative, but the overall dynamic of play. Isn't that shifting the dynamic too far? I agree that that 3E gave PCs too much power. Is 5E an improper correction? As I have mentioned previously, to make 5E work optimally you need a great DM, and those folks are not common.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
Ok, point taken. I get it.

5E seems like a move to give the DM/GM more control of not only the narrative, but the overall dynamic of play. Isn't that shifting the dynamic too far? I agree that that 3E gave PCs too much power. Is 5E an improper correction?

I personally railed against it during the playtest. I preferred D&D 4e's DM and player dynamic. But I lost that battle.

As I have mentioned previously, to make 5E work optimally you need a great DM, and those folks are not common.

More common than they used to be in my experience, but still uncommon yeah.
 

Hmmm... that's quite the different dynamic. Not bad, simply different. Proves the point others have made about 3.x players having difficulty changing to 5E. Initially I liked the 3.x exactitude of Skills and a PCs ability to succeed or fail at a given task. I don't mind the Skill dynamic, however it limits some characters ability to do important things.
I actually think in 5e's it's become a bit more flexible. If players come up with weird stunts, you don't have to look through the rules and calculate the DC (if it's even possible), you just set an appropriate DC, tell them what skills to use, and see what happens. Skate down a flight of stairs on a shield whilst firing arrows? DC 20 Acrobatics check. Having the Barbarian toss the Gnome Druid across a roaring river, with someone on the other side to catch him? DC 15 Athletics check with Advantage.

A lot of 3.5e players don't quite like this, since the DM can set DCs arbitrarily low or high to make the likelihood of succeeding higher or lower. There's more room for subjectivity and ulterior motives, and poor DMs might set it too high or too low for all the wrong reasons. I don't think that's a huge issue, but as a 5e DM I'm a bit biased.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
After a long hiatus our group has begun playing again. We play 3.5E and never explored 4E, let alone 5E. My renewed interest in playing has prompted me to explore 5E and how the game has evolved. I get the majority of the mechanics in this newest version, however I am a bit perplexed about how Advantage and Disadvantage work - it's very vague in both the PHB & DMG. If there's a thread already posted on the topic I'd appreciate a link (I did search for one, but not exhaustively). Or if someone can give me the in and outs in a reply here that would also be cool. Thanks.
Others have given you the mechanical details.

So let me just say what a god-send it is from the Dungeon Master's perspective! :)

It turns out you can get all the juicy dungeons-and-dragon-y goodness without spending your time continuously adding up niggly little -1's and +1's!

From a 3E gamer's perspective, I understand your skepticism, but you should really try it out.

As for difficulty classes (DCs), use these three whenever you set a DC and you're golden:
DC 11* - average
DC 15 - heroic
DC 20 - "impossible"
*) not a typo

No, really, only those three. Yes, for all levels.

(Obviously the save DCs of monsters and scrolls are specified and shouldn't be changed. Talking about the DCs you the DM set here)
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Ok, point taken. I get it.

5E seems like a move to give the DM/GM more control of not only the narrative, but the overall dynamic of play. Isn't that shifting the dynamic too far? I agree that that 3E gave PCs too much power. Is 5E an improper correction? As I have mentioned previously, to make 5E work optimally you need a great DM, and those folks are not common.

In my experience, designing to curtail bad DMs doesn’t actually make games with bad DMs not bad experiences, it only limits how good the experience can be with a good DM. Such things are better handled by the group than by the rules. It has also been my experience that 5e is very good at facilitating improvement in new and mediocre DMs. I myself was a pretty meh DM who has improved a lot since DMing 5e.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
Ok, point taken. I get it.

5E seems like a move to give the DM/GM more control of not only the narrative, but the overall dynamic of play. Isn't that shifting the dynamic too far? I agree that that 3E gave PCs too much power. Is 5E an improper correction? As I have mentioned previously, to make 5E work optimally you need a great DM, and those folks are not common.

Well every game fails if there are bad players/DMs involved, including 3e. 5e works completely well with a sensible DM. I once taught a non-hobby gamer how to play and after their 2nd session they went and started an entirely new group and it apparently went very well. 5e is by far the most popular RPG ever and is now played by more new players than old. This says to me that it is easy to learn and play.

This might be a better way to think about the philosophy of rule design:

3e is designed mechanics/simluation first.

5e is designed narrative first.

So the first thing the designers ask before writing a rule or option is its place in fiction/the narrative. If you keep that in mind then the game is easy to learn which is why I think most new players have an easy time learning it.
 

Shiroiken

Legend
Ok, point taken. I get it.

5E seems like a move to give the DM/GM more control of not only the narrative, but the overall dynamic of play. Isn't that shifting the dynamic too far? I agree that that 3E gave PCs too much power. Is 5E an improper correction? As I have mentioned previously, to make 5E work optimally you need a great DM, and those folks are not common.
Due to the simplified rules (and many, many online videos), it's easier for people to start DMing than before, but you are correct in that a GOOD DM is needed to get the best out of the game. However, for many people the definition of what a good DM is varies from group to group, so it's going to be a process for new DMs to figure out what works best.


For example, in my group we have 4 semi-active DMs (one regular, 2 semi-regular, and 1 guy between campaigns). I'm the old school guy (started with 1E) and my style is focused on exploration and sandbox style play, so I've houseruled the game a LOT to fit my needs. The regular DM is a 2E kind of guy with every elaborate storied adventures, but he holds mostly to the rules as written/intended. One of the other guys runs great stories (prior Thule campaign was a blast), with excellent improv, running fast and loose with the rules. The last guy runs one-shot adventures fairly tight to the adventure, and also plays loose on the rules. Each of us has a different style, allowing us present a different game to the group.
 

I

Immortal Sun

Guest
Advantage: you roll two d20's and take the better result.
Disadvantage: you roll d20's and take the lower result.

I absolutely love it, it's so simple and easy both to use and to understand. I've ported it into every game that uses a d20 as a primary die. I really feel like there's an impact on the player when they're told "take the lower" or "take the better" when they roll.
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
In my experience, designing to curtail bad DMs doesn’t actually make games with bad DMs not bad experiences, it only limits how good the experience can be with a good DM. Such things are better handled by the group than by the rules.

I’ve had similar experiences and conclusions, myself. It seems the end result from my days of playing 3e was cutting off the highs and lows and leaving the end result a lot of “mediocre.” The old hands knew what to nip/tuck to make things great, but the new DMs frequently got bogged down with following the rules assiduously and depending on the charts to tell ‘em how to adjudicate. Heck, there’s a debate going on now on the forums about “one gamer’s ‘precise’ is another gamer’s ‘too detailed.’”
 

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