Adventurers making money with profession

[Bialaska]

The economic system of 4e is completely and utterly broken unfortunately and doesn't really support crafts and professions.

One of the most interesting campaigns I ran was where the players gained a deed for a small general store. At that point the planned adventures took a turn, as the players decided that they wanted to get the store up and running so they could earn money on it.

Many of their encounters involved bandits attacking their caravans with import or adventurers to gain favors. For instance by earning favors from the general of the nearby militia they were able to earn exclusive rights on all equipment to the military, from rations to weaponry, armor and horses. Eventually they expanded, doing adventures to dig up dirt on other businesses or setting up things so they could acquire the non-corrupt businesses rather cheaply. Which by the campaigns end led to them being who everybody came to when they needed money.

The point is that if the players really put an effort into earning it, they should be able to get a larger amount of wealth than if they simply do adventurers for whoever pays them the most. But 4e lacks the economics to handle stuff like that, everything is extremely limited in scope and your character can basically only go into dungeons and back to the city to use their gold to enchant new items or disenchant old items.

 

[Lareth]

For a good guideline on how to run a merchant-flavored campaign watch Firefly. Those guys were hard-core adventurers, but the entire show revolved around buying low in one place, selling high in another, and dealing with the dangers in between. And the best part? They almost never actually managed to make a profit.

Good stuff.

 

[DClown]

I'd probably try to adapt the skill challenge system.

First you might have to come up with a craft knowledge skill and just let people take a feat to train in it.

Then use the skill challenge system to complete objectives.

Craft Weapon - involved in tasks that relate to crafting weapons
Insight - Market Savy, understanding what people want and would buy
Diplomacy - Enhancing your reputation, getting the word out, hiring apprentices, establishing supply lines.
Streetwise - Know your competition, know who to bribe to get your goods on display in choice spots, etc.

Come up with challenges

- Creating a batch of basic long swords and selling them to a merchant ( Craft Weapon/Insight/Diplomacy ) DC 15 4/4 : Success - 5d4 gold piece profit, Failure - -2 to Craft rolls until you complete a challenge, spend 10 gp on raw materials, etc.
- Creating and selling a brilliantly made bejeweled katana ( Craft, Insight, Streetwise ) DC 25 8/2 : Success - +2 rep bonus to your next diplomacy or streetwise rolls in a crafting skill challenge, earn 10d10 gold pieces

This way other members of the group could participate in the skill challenge, and the task could even be considered an encounter that awards them experience if it was significant to the developing story. Any roleplaying done to accomplish the task could give +2 DM bonuses, and the whole process would just take a series of rolls. Abstract out the time and the party should agree on downtime

This will also encourage other players to come up with out of combat things they want their characters to do and you can come up with skill challenges for those as well. ( the rogue wants to do a little burgarly on the side, the cleric wants to try setting up a church in town, the wizard wants to acquire a local run down property that is starting point for his tower, etc. ) Then just go around the table once during in game downtime periods each player makes a series of rolls, and you spent 30 min tops on making the experience that much more meaningfull to each person by helping them develop out of combat motivations. Award some experience for successes, split it evenly between the group, and then go tackle a dungeon.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I have a player who plans to make an exotic weapon merchant in a campaign I'm planning.

How would you handle such a thing in your 4.0 chronicle with the new rules?

I would give him a free +5 to checks involving "being an exotic weapon merchant" (which would be stat checks for all other characters). At my discretion, he would occasionally get to make rolls that other PCs cannot even attempt because they are not trained exotic weapon merchants. Naturally, I would encourage the other players to select backgrounds for their own PCs, which would pay off in similiar fashion.

I would try to throw elements of exotic weapon merchanting into the background of adventures I run. If nothing else, it gives me a good excuse to have monsters using weird and bizarre weapons. The PC would get opportunities to buy and sell exotic weapons (for merchant-level prices), as part of his individual subplots.

I wouldn't worry over-much about the economic aspect, other than monitoring the total magic item value of all the PCs and making sure things don't get out of whack. Of course, if he wants to invest his exotic weapon merchanting money in stuff like buying properties or hiring managers to run an ever-expanding merchant empire, I'd roll with that and not count such monies against his expected character wealth level.

So, yeah. Pretty much like I'd do it in 3E, except now I'm not going to make him pay a skill point tax for Profession: Exotic Weapons Merchant.

 

[James McMurray]

If the group wants to play a merchant campaign I'd recommend we use WFRP or Rolemaster instead. 4e's system just isn't geared towards that, and tacking something on would feel like a lot of work given that there are other systems that handle it better.

If it's just one person wanting to do it, I'd try to see what he's expecting from a logistics standpoint in regards to merchanting vs. adventuring, and go from there. The odds are pretty good that it'd end up being a bad choice from a min-maxing perspective, since a week in the field will earn an adventurer a lot more than a month in the shop is going to earn a merchant.

If the whole group wants to play D&D and be merchants, I'd probably forego a merchanting game system altogether. Assume people can handle jobs appropriate to their class, and use the business as a hook to hang the quests on. Things like discrediting competitors, fixing your tarnished name when you've been discredited, taking care of the thieves' guild, etc.

But in no case would I create and entire system for mercantile exchange for fourth edition. That's too much work for a campaign I don't get a thrill when I think about running.

 

[interwyrm]

Blanket statement: Anyone who says it can't be done is being uncreative.

Look, it's not that hard! The OP didn't say the character necessarily is going to be making the weapons even. Just a merchant.

Think about what a merchant in the PoL setting would have to do to be able to run a profitable business. He needs to sell equipment at a higher price than it costs him to acquire it. A large part of that means finding interested buyers.

Quest formats specific to this player could involve finding information about the location of different weapons, working on commission to retrieve exotic items, bringing exotic components to a smith to produce fine weapons to later sell, defending against theft, raiding dragon hoards...

In fact, there's a lot of flexibility built into "treasure" with this concept, treasure hoards don't always have to be something useful to the players.... in some cases, they could find something *they* don't need, but that a fellow adventurer is seeking - and is willing to trade for.

You don't *need* rules for this sort of thing. That'd probably make it less fun. Figure out *why* your player wants to play the merchant, and then try to meet his expectations.

 

[lukelightning]

Quest formats specific to this player could involve finding information about the location of different weapons, working on commission to retrieve exotic items, bringing exotic components to a smith to produce fine weapons to later sell, defending against theft, raiding dragon hoards...

This is the best solution, as long as it isn't to the detriment of the other players; either they get rewards for these quests as well, or they should be getting their own private quests too.

 

[darkrose50]

PC: I want to make swords in my down time, and sell them in my little shop.
DM: You can, but the rule here says you can only sell your swords for 20% of the trade value.
PC: What? Let me look at that. *Reads rule* *Shock on face*
DM: Yup your character concept sucks. There are no rules for doing what you want to do. In fact there is a rule saying you will loose money doing that.
PC: Crap I guess I won’t be a merchant then. *Kicks a rock*
DM: Yup you suck. *Points and laughs* Who would want to be a merchant in D&D?
PC: I think it would be fun!
DM: Merchants are not fun.
PC: Says who?
DM: If merchants were fun, and a part of D&D there would be rules for them.
PC: This game sucks.

 

[Wolfwood2]

PC: I want to make swords in my down time, and sell them in my little shop.
DM: You can, but the rule here says you can only sell your swords for 20% of the trade value.
PC: What? Let me look at that. *Reads rule* *Shock on face*
DM: Yup your character concept sucks. There are no rules for doing what you want to do. In fact there is a rule saying you will loose money doing that.
PC: Crap I guess I won’t be a merchant then. *Kicks a rock*
DM: Yup you suck. *Points and laughs* Who would want to be a merchant in D&D?
PC: I think it would be fun!
DM: Merchants are not fun.
PC: Says who?
DM: If merchants were fun, and a part of D&D there would be rules for them.
PC: This game sucks.

That's such a third edition mindset. 3E was where you got "the rules are the rules are the rules". 4E is all about, "the rules are the rules until you come up with a better idea".

Exception based design!

 

[Celebrim]

That's such a third edition mindset. 3E was where you got "the rules are the rules are the rules". 4E is all about, "the rules are the rules until you come up with a better idea".

Exception based design!

No, that's exception based thinking.

There just isn't any evidence that 4e was designed to be a game with a loose relationship with the rules. There is no evidence that 4e is all about promoting a tinker's relationship with the rules, or that the 4e designers consider there rules to be just loose suggestions readily open to interpretation. In fact, I see the opposite. The 4e rules are designed to be extremely clear and have very low requirements for interpretation, and that the 4e mindset is that DM adjudication is not particularly necessary or desirable. The mindset is much closer to that of the Magic the Gathering rules than it is to classic 'Rule Zero' centered RPG rules.

Instead, what you do see is 4e supporters who when challenged with holes, contridictions, and exceptions in the rules respond by that bugs aren't really bugs, they are features. In particular, they continually claim in the face of the rules producing illogical results that the rules simply expect an experienced DM to adjust them as necessary, while simultaneously continually claiming that the relative narrowness of the rules is because they are designed primarily with inexperienced DMs in mind.