Advice from GMs Requested

[Robtheman]

I'm 9 months in to a campaign. We play 3 hour sessions, which allows for some RP and one combat. The formula is getting stale.

I would like to brainstorm with you folks about ways to create the following in a three hour session.

1) Combining RP with combat without dragging the fight out.

2) Combining skill challenges with combat

3) Have combat without a battle map, but still include dice rolling and maybe damage.

4) Some times we just don't have time for a full combat encounter. Some times the players are only satisfied with a chance to crit. Some times the players don't want to fight at all. If we plan for a specific type of resolution (tactical/skill challenge/etc.), the resulting conflict resolution can be unsatisfying to all involved. Can we write encounters/conflicts using a framework that allows for various methods of resolving said conflict, but without writing 3 separate encounters.

- Robtheman, PDX

 

[Piratecat]

I recently did something really similar in my 3-hour-long game session, making a combatty-skill challenge. Details here. You can click out to the end of the thread for a whole lot more discussion on other sorts of skill challenges that do similar things. You're more than welcome to join the conversation.

In my game a few days ago, the bad guy has a shield of pure ego around him and he can't be damaged until the PCs insult him enough, using diplomacy checks to tear apart his self-image. Meanwhile, they're fighting his minions. That might actually combine all three of your goals.

 

[RangerWickett]

In my game a few days ago, the bad guy has a shield of pure ego around him and he can't be damaged until the PCs insult him enough, using diplomacy checks to tear apart his self-image. Meanwhile, they're fighting his minions. That might actually combine all three of your goals.

Do you ever stop coming up with awesome ideas, Kevin?

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

Wow only 1 combat? I run a 3-4 hour session and can squeeze up to 3 combats into that with role playing as well. Guess it also depends on what level your PCs are and how many NPCs/Creatures you are throwing at them.

1) As far as combining RP with combat, that's a tough one because that's on your players more so than yourself as the DM. Not much role-playing you can do with creatures that may or may not speak the languages that your PCs do or may not be so inclined to speak to them anyhow. The way I do that is allowing PCs to capture or do non-lethal damage to subdue an NPC especially if they have reason to believe the NPC knows some valuable information which they need/want.

2) Skill challenges without combat are fun as well, just do some role playing and devise something to go along with your campaign storyline. Not everything has to be resolved with a sword, put your PCs in situations where they know they'd lose if they got into a fight, but they could use diplomacy, etc to talk their way out of it or garner helpful information from someone or something. An example I'll use is them talking to a lord of a city who has a few bigger badder guards than the PCs in terms of level and they are trying to buy, bargain, or talk this lord into something.

3) This one is tough, because so much in 4E is battle map related! Pushing, moving, bursts, etc etc. I'm not sure how I'd be able to do that and still follow 4E rules in combat. I remember back in the day when I played 2E and this wasn't a problem whatsoever because everything was in your head and battle maps with 1inch grids were not necessary for combat.

4) I'd need a bit more information about how you run your combat encounters, what level your PCs are, are you using minions or just a ton of brutes for example? What I do personally is use a free program on my computer to keep track of the initiatives, damage, conditions, etc for me. I have a designated "assistant DM" who looks up rules for us if we need to during combat which leaves it open for me to keep track of everything else. I let my players know ahead of time who is upcoming as far as their turns go (i.e. Dave your turn, next it's Bob, then Gary). This gets the other two thinking about what they want to do ahead of time and speeds up combat considerably as well.

Hope that helps, if you have other specific questions I'll do my best to answer them and I'm sure the other DM's here will pipe in their opinions as well.

Trav

 

[Robtheman]

@ Pigeons
I enjoyed reading that one! I've been following the Pcat thread for a long time now and eagerly await Sagiro's next contribution.

That S.C. touches on something I've noticed when reviewing skill challenge threads. Inherently cinematic encounters as skill challenges seem to lead to the best experiences by players and GMs. Conversely, using the skill challenge as a hoop does the opposite. If the DM's line of thought is, "I don't have time for a fight but I don't want to just give this to them without some kind of challenge," then the result tends to be poor.

Striking a balance between the benefits of skills and powers in combined encounters was a sticking point for me. Giving Encounter Powers the same result as a successful skill check certainly helps avoid the problem of a combat focused player not having skills to contribute with.

Some questions: They ended with a 12:1 ratio. Did it seem too easy for them too succeed with the ability to use Encounter Powers? Did you expect them to win? What would you have done to improve the encounter?

@ the Ego Shield
Wow! Awesome idea. Thanks for sharing. =)

 

[delericho]

Play faster. Our group has 2.5 hour sessions, and manages to cram in at least a second combat.

Seriously, I think you would be well advised to reduce monster hit points by 25% (and maybe up damage to compensate). This alone will shorten your combat encounters without unduly affecting the flow of the game, allowing you more time for roleplay and/or more combats in the same time.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

If your fights are a considered fairly challenging by the players, back off the difficulty for awhile. Sometimes, when players are feeling challenged, they go into "scrape out every last advantage" mode, and I've rarely seen anyone roleplay well in that situation, if it is the norm. (Rarely, you'll have a great scene were the desperation the players feel comes out in the characterization, but you can't do that every fight.)

It might be sufficient to tell the players this is the plan, ask everyone to relax a bit, but keep the flow moving, including roleplaying. They are going to win the fights, but the point is to enjoy the fights.

If they need more than that, you might alter the amount of XP given for the fight, based upon how they play. For example, if a L+1 encounter is what you've been using, and you back this off to L-1 to relax things, then they can mail it in, and get L-1 XP, or they can ham it up and get L+1 XP.

And you don't have to stay this way. After everyone gets used to the different pace, you can go back to real challenges. But even then, I've found that if you want people to continue roleplaying through encounters, you need a good mix of challenges.

 

[Robtheman]

I appreciate the techniques you are suggesting for stream lining combat. I can say with reasonable certainty that the party is moving as quickly as they can with the exception of one player who simply cannot make his mind up before his turn. It's part of who he is and I have to accept it. Using Masterplan; have a dozen encounters available at any time to meet their possible choices and use the Obsidian system for Skill Challenges.

I think I'll start hand waving the last round or two of combat more often. Also, +50 damage and -50% hps needs to happen at the table more often. I think I'll add a mechanical element to a certain class of bad guys. Perhaps the baddies are given stimulants, etc..

The bent of question 4 had more to do with planning encounters with fewer specifics so they can be quickly adapted to be a skill challenge, tactical combat, or something in between. The thought that spawned this had less to do with the amount of time we have, and more to do with reading the mood of the table and giving them what they want.

How have attempts to "wing it" gone for you?

Refining the question in 3. Some days I'd like to avoid setting out tiles or sketching in a map for fights. I read an interesting approach somewhere (here?) that used new mechanics for not-quite-mass combat (bar fights, etc.). Perhaps the answer is something along the lines of the Path of 1,000 Pecking Pigeons. Thoughts? Seems like the answer will revolve around having the PCs paint the picture, more than the DM.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

Yep some very sound advice from the experience of others behind the DM screen.

I agree that lowering hps and upping damage will help you out quite a bit to speed things up. Nothing you can really do about the player who likes to sit there and think things through for a long time unless you penalize him somehow which isn't very cool to some people.

I love to wing it. That's how I usually do things, because you can't plan for every eventuality. I try to get 2-3 encounters planned ahead of time and toss them in when I deem necessary or fitting to the situation. Other times I'll just do a quick and dirty random challenge of some sort skill or RP-wise to flesh out the session. Some of the best moments at the table have come from winging it for me.

As for question 4, I think you are on to something like the PC pigeon challenge and letting the PCs paint the picture can certainly be fun.

 

[Piratecat]

I'm a huge fan of reducing hit points by 25% and increasing monster damage by roughly the same amount. Works great, ramps up the feel of danger, and finishes fights more quickly.

Some questions: They ended with a 12:1 ratio. Did it seem too easy for them too succeed with the ability to use Encounter Powers? Did you expect them to win? What would you have done to improve the encounter?

Nope. Their runaway success was partially a result of chance; no one rolled under a 12! I still required them to roll to hit with the encounter powers, and only blasts or bursts worked, so I thought it was pretty well balanced.

Thanks for the kind words. The idea of the guy behind the ego shield occurred to me two hours before the game, when I still had no idea whatsoever what was going to happen during a game. The thought process went like this:
- I have no idea what is in this dungeon
- My players like to roleplay and love to insult my enemies!
- Clearly, the answer is to give them someone they have to creatively insult.
- Everything else sort of rolled out of that.

A good rule of thumb is not to force-fit a skill challenge in; instead, when the PCs want to do something significant and challenging, decide if it'd be more fun to make it a skill challenge.